uncontrolled finning ascent

[princessaprilia]

Hi.

I have a problem with keeping a horizontal motion when I’m finning.

I can control my buoyancy when not moving, I have good horizontal positioning (when I tuck my head, I can see behind me instead of looking at my knees). I have the commentary running thru my head “Maintain long posture. Shoulder to knees straight. Bend at knees. Don’t look up too much.”

As soon as I start to kick, I’m on my way up. Even if I’m specifically trying to go down a bit, I’m fighting the upward movement.

I’m meeting with my DM next weekend so that he can check out my form, but I’m hoping to get some ideas before I hit the water.

Is there an error in finning that most of us newbies tend to keep repeating?

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

What exposure protection are you wearing? Where are your weights positioned, and how much? And are you neutrally bouyant, or almost positive when you are at a hover? When you kick and begin to ascend, do you dump air? Is your whole body in a horizontal line or are you head and shoulders up when you fin? And are you kicking a hard down stroke that would force you vertical? Does this happen when you frog kick?
I just want a little/lot more information to hazard a guess here.

 

[princessaprilia]

Hi ZenDiver,
I first noticed this in the touring portion of my OW 3, so I was wearing a 3ml full suit, with boots, no gloves. I had all of my weight in my BC pockets.

I really started picking this problem apart in our fun-swim last week. I was wearing 3ml shorty, with gloves, boots and hood (trying to get used to that feeling). Again, weights all in the pockets.

I believe that I am neutrally buoyant, if not a bit negative. While in the pool, I forced myself to be VERY negative, and I was traveling in the same direction.

My head and shoulders are down, and I have absolutely NO idea how to frog kick. I might be kicking a hard down stroke… that makes sense.

Should your thighs move when finning?

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

OK. How much weight are you carrying? Too much can change your position in the water too. You may be bicycling. That can make you go vertical. Your legs on a flutter kick open and close slowly like a pair of scissors. Depending on your fins, you move anywhere from just your ankles to lower thighs. But, you may be kickinglike a person riding a bycicle. Just have your DM watch you swim a few laps. He/she should be able to spot your issue right away. You have changed your kick style. Many do without even realizing it. And often, if you are on that cusp of neutral/positive, kicking can make you just rise. I think your best bet is to just hang on and see your DM. They can sort you out much better than all of us quarterbacking from the locker room.
Unless you want to post a video. Then we'd be in business.

 

[don Francisco]

A few things come to mind.

1- the physical effort of finning, or tension relating to your problem, will cause you to breathe harder, filling your lungs more and giving you more bouyancy. Many new divers have this problem, especially as they try to do safety stops. Relax while you fin, fin gently, and until you get more experience, try letting some air out of the BC before finning.

BTW- the increased air in your lungs will also affect your trim (remember the fin tip excercise) bringing your head up, and causing you to plane upwards when you fin.

2- there's a bubble of air in your BC. Imagine your BC as a bubble level for a moment. The bubble will always be at the top of the BC, but will move within the BC depending on your trim. It would be near your hips when you're slightly heads down, or near your shoulders if slightly heads up. The movement of this bubble changes your point of balance so if you alter your trim past the horizontal when finning it'll move to the other end of the BC and exaggerate the change. As you learn to dive with less weight the bubble will be smaller, and it's movement less consequential.

3- you might be arching your back too much when lift your head to look forward and slicing through the water like a banana, arcing yourself to a heads up trim. Try relaxing more, and not lifting your head so much when finning.

4- the angle of your fins to the water changes the reaction forces on the fins. If your fins are too horizontal the reaction force on the upstroke can be greater than that on the downstroke causing your feet to be driven downwards and and thus your head up. (I used to have the opposite problem, where with hard finning my feet would tend to rise) Try pointing your toes down more and see if that helps.

There are too many possibilities to try to fix all at once, so first try to determine if it's a bouyancy issue related to breathing changes, or a trim issue where whenever you fin you rotate to a more heads up trim. After that try changing one thing at a time, until you solve the problem.

In the meantime, you might try swimming with your open hands together in front of you forming a diving plane, like the trim planes on submarines. Angling your hands down slightly will bring your head down, and you can use this plane to maintain your desired trim as you fin. Long term you'll want to keep your arms tucked close to reduce drag, but this might help getting to that point.

I know you'll find the solution, and in the meantime are getting good lessons in the problems of managing weightlessness. dF

 

[Hallmac]

I believe that I am neutrally buoyant, if not a bit negative. While in the pool, I forced myself to be VERY negative, and I was traveling in the same direction.

If you will allow me to make a few assumptions based upon what I typically see, odds are you are well over weighted. Most instructors do that at the beginning of class to over come a few issues and never get to the proper weighting portion.

My head and shoulders are down, and I have absolutely NO idea how to frog kick. I might be kicking a hard down stroke… that makes sense.

Should your thighs move when finning?

Yes, you should be using the big muscles of the buttocks and thighs with a very small amount of ankle action to position the fins at the right angle. Where are you going in such a hurry that you have to kick hard?

In the water you have to slow down to go fast. Water is non-compressible, If you are trying to go fast you push the planet, let it flow around you, slip through the water not kick through it. Relax.... water moves constantly, even in the pool, if you are working hard you are doing it all wrong. Steady even kicks. Feel the waters movements and let it slip over and around you, your efficiency will propel you through the area as fast as you need. In strong steady directional current you may need to kick hard however in any other condition you should be able to use short even kicks and pauses, or glides.

Remember, our bodies design naturally causes a stronger kick down than up, that tilts your torso up. A strong kick forces you move, the water being uncompressible becomes a wall, your feet are moving faster than your head and try to pass it. Since your head is up, the kick will push you up.

As for weighting issues here is yet another little indicator if you are over weighted. After a dive, once you have disassembled your gear, turn the BC upside down and depress the exhaust button. If water does not run out.....you are over weighted.

Slow down to go fast. Kick and glide. If it is not fun, you are doing it wrong.
Take your pick for today's slogan.

Hall

 

[princessaprilia]

Thanks for all the tips. Having to contend with the 3D portion of swimming is proving to be difficult for me. I’m a fairly strong swimmer at the surface (and traditionally an over-thinker) so this inability is quite frustrating.

Should I have tension in my ankles/calves on the upstroke? My toes are fully pointed (dancer toes) with the downstroke, then I flex at the ankle (toes curled up) when forcing back up. I don’t pull back as hard as I push down, but I do put muscle into it.

You guys are fabulous.

 

[24940]

If you're neutral when still, you must be directing your thrust downward. There are only three things which can cause you to ascend: thrust, buoyancy or water movement.

 

[princessaprilia]

Thanks Hallmac,

I pick...

"If you are trying to go fast you push the planet."

That will be my mantra for the day.

 

[SouthSideScubaSteve]

..... As for weighting issues here is yet another little indicator if you are over weighted. After a dive, once you have disassembled your gear, turn the BC upside down and depress the exhaust button. If water does not run out.....you are over weighted.
... Hall

Ok, I am a new diver and I know and accept that I started out very over-weighted on my first dives and am still somewhat over-weighted (getting better each dive I think), but I can't figure out what the connection is between lack of water in your BC and being over-weighted??

Please enlighten me...
Steve