Underwater tool use.

[grumpie]

How many teams practise using tnt or a hurst tool under water? The navy just want to use some parts off our old hurst tool up here on the 35-W project, when theirs broke.
There times when it pays to know just what tools are arround and how they work. I used a hurst tool to cut up a airplane under water so that we could float it up and haul it to shore. The guys from FAA did not have any problem with that after we sat down and did a dive plan with them.
Does anyone sit down and practise car rigging in the parking lot, before they have to do it for real. If you work with your local tow contractor, he has lots of cars that you can use before he junks them out.
Have you tried to break a window underwater ? If you dont have a spring loaded window its just about impossible to do.
Just some questions to think about
grumpie........

 

[Gary D.]

We have in the way distant past but don’t anymore.

Being around tows a lot and using the SAME tow company all the time we get along much better. Most of the time the diver has to tell the tow driver what to do and not the other way around.

There are other ways to take out a window but the spring punch is by far the easiest and most reliable. BUT only if it’s Tempered Glass. More and more vehicles are going to Laminated Glass to prevent or at least slow down vehicle burglaries.

There are a lot of vehicles out there now that have a thinner windshield glass all around. This is a concern for Fire/Med and Leo’s alike. It is making it harder to extricate people in a hurry. The dollar savings win out over lives again.

Gary D.

 

[bridgediver]

I shudder at the thought of using heavy tools on vehicles in the water. Tool management aside, the vehicles themselves are a pandoras box. They've become so dangerous and unpredictable on land never mind compounding the problem in the water.
Air bags are everywhere now as well as the seatbelt pretensioners and loaded bumpers. Cutting or distrupting one of these charges and/or cylinders is becoming more likely every year.
If winches and lift bags don't work I'd rather call a commercial guy with a torch --- although I admit to knowing next to nothing about how to do that job so maybe thats no good either(?)

 

[Gary D.]

If anyone had a need for Jaws underwater it would be the Twin Cities incident. A very rare need at best. If it would involve a vehicle underwater time may be better spent hooking a tow up to it and dragging it out of the water first.

Knowing how they work and when to use them is fine. But using them on the bottom is not for the standard PSD.

Gary D.

 

[BladesRobinson]

I am certain there are applications for using cutting tools underwater but for MOST PSD operations, the potential risk does not offset the benefit. I am certain the Navy has done an adequate risk/benefit analysis and this is their best solution to a complex problem.

If our team is ever faced with a problem where we have to consider using a Hurst tool underwater, I can assure you there would be a whole lot of discussion first. The same applies to rigging lift bags. The pre-dive briefing offers the best opportunity to resolve issues and prevent accidents, and to do the risk/benefit analysis with all persons having input.

We do NOT practice using Hurst tools underwater and in 27 years, our agency has never utilized a diver operating a Hurst tool at depth. If the ituation warrants (like Gary said) we would pull the vehicle and extricate the victim on the surface.

One thing that amazes me is when vis is less than 18 inches, who among us wants to hold the tips of the spreader (24 inches away) in the right position while someone else operates the controls? I know I have been blessed having 10 fingers but I darned sure plan to retire with all of them attached to my hands.

Just my two cents... (and about all it's worth).

 

[grumpie]

Its not a perfect world out there, but if you dont train with all the types of tools that
you have at your choice, how will you ever learn what you can and can not do.
I can remember doing lift bag classes in upper Wisc in 30 feet of water and zero vis. I was one of the lucky ones who had using lift bags for years. It was a DRI class.
There are some advtages in have comm gear so that you can talk diver to diver and train together. If you dont train together and work together you will never learn and some one WILL get hurt.
Gary, Blades, bridgediver and me (grumpie) must be the only ones who read this group, Guys lets get some thing going here.

 

[grumpie]

PS, try recovering a airplane 400 feet out in the lake with the nose stuck 4 feet in the bottom and the wings and the floats and the tail laying across the cabin. We will not talk about the 5 bodies in the cockpit.
grumpie......

 

[Gary D.]

We did one that stayed mostly intact in 100' about a quarter mile from solid soil. Pilot husband made it out after climbing over his passenger wife to get out. Hummmmmm, we won't talk about that one either.

You guys want a good laugh. Lane B went on a two week vacation. He was gone for one week and home for the other. But during his time in playland he missed two SRU and two Dive calls. A couple of the calls were missed due to a brewski decompression. You should of heard him whine at briefing last night.

Last, our new toy has arrived. It even looks fast sitting on the trailer. Pic's later.

Gary D.

 

[seductiveconcepts]

One thing that amazes me is when vis is less than 18 inches, who among us wants to hold the tips of the spreader (24 inches away) in the right position while someone else operates the controls? I know I have been blessed having 10 fingers but I darned sure plan to retire with all of them attached to my hands.

I agree with Blades... Being in a typically no vis situation operating cutting and spreading equipment certainly poses a great risk to both the diver, and the individuals trapped inside. I feel it would be easier but more importantly safer to lift the car then extricate. Remember the core of DR1 - risk/benefit analysis!

Just my .02,
Jeremy

P.S. Blades, sorry I am gonna miss you at the conference this year, loved last years, but blew my personal training budget on that pesky meddive class, but it was certainly worth it....