Unethical?

[VTernovski]

mech once bubbled...
I'm in business.
The fact he hid this makes it theft in my oppinion.

it's not theft, he didn;t steal anyhting, as a matter of fact, he was paying for it. I would rather call it abuse of power...

 

[mech]

Lots of wholesalers do not have retail licenses.
They are not set up for and allowed to recieve taxes.
So ....who would pay the tax?
On another note, the employer should weed out employees and/or associates that are not worthy of recieving things on "sweetheart" deals or for free.
I don't believe we are hearing the whole story,but I really don't care.

 

[coberry7]

Key man prices are prices offered by manufacturers to people in "key" positions. The below dealer cost encourages these "key men" (who are often women) to buy their products. Having their products used by these "key men" prompts retail customers to buy their products.

To further clarify about Keyman pricing...

Walter is correct.

What has not been clarified is that even if you are a 'KeyMan' you cannot buy the gear at these prices without going through a sales presentation, and in my case, a test about the equipment, before filling out your order form. These sessions usually happen once a year for a 'KeyMan' to update his gear or for him to replace beat up gear.

You cannot order directly from the manufacturer without being invited to do so by the dive shop owner. Working in a dive shop, I am unable to directly order from the manufacturer at any other time. I have to purchase my gear at whatever discount my dive shop allows me.

I do not know how the person referred to in the original post got away with this. I'm skeptical on a few points, actually.

 

[pt40fathoms]

scubagirl15 once bubbled...
What do you guys think of this:

A PADI instructor for a dive store orders gear directly from a manufacturer at dealer pricing BUT arranges to have the purchase billed directly to his personal credit card and to have the goods delivered directly to his home.

The store owner discovered the situation because the manufactuer's rep was kind enough to call the store owner to ask if it was OK.

You probably don't need me to tell you the store owner's reaction: angry would be putting it mildly.

If you were the store owner, what would you do?

I've posted the initial posting so as to clarify what has been asked.

First of all, the relationship between the instructor and the LDS has not been clearly stated. If I were to approach this question based on what is the "most common" relationship between instructors and Local Dive Shops. I would have to approach it with the instructor operating as a contractor, hiring out his services to the LDS for an agreed upon level of compensation. This would mean that the instructor maintained his or her own insurance, and supplied his or her own equipment. The LDS would supply all other needed equipment and services, as well as students.

With this relationship, what had happened was nothing more than a retail transaction. The only ethics dilemma here is why the manufacturer informed the LDS of the impending transaction, and in effect asked for permission from the LDS to sell the product to the instructor. At no time was the instructor using either credit or status of the LDS to conduct this transaction. Assuming of course if s/he did it would have been stated in the original question at the beginning of this post. The fact that the instructor was doing business with the manufacturer for the purchase of a product for personal use was none of the LDS's business. Further to that, the owner of the LDS has absolutely no cause for being upset or taking any action towards the instructor that could be considered punitive. If the LDS does in fact take punitive action, the instructor would be within his rights to seek damages from the manufacturer and the LDS.

In short, “YES” there is an ethics dilemma and possibly a legal one as well, but this possible breach is on the actions of the manufacturer and to some extent the LDS.

 

[OneBrightGator]

yoda4x4 once bubbled...
Now, that's not to say that the owner should sell his gear to the instructor at the normal retail cost. But, whether or not he does, is his choice. Personally, I would. Then again, that's just me.

:shaking: You've found the BEST way to drive Instructors and employees away from a store. We're divers, we don't make minimum wage, there's no way in HELL we'd teach if we had to pay retail. Not only does it reduce our compensation GREATLY, but it divides the Owner and/or Manager from the rest of the staff creating tension and a poor work environment (trust me, been there, done that, won't go back). It's really no skin off the Owner's back, students want what the Instructor has, it actually pays to give Instructors discounts.

Ben

 

[OneBrightGator]

Otter once bubbled...
Newbie sure knows a lot about the situation, key man, etc..

I think you may be spot on here...

Ben

 

[Lead_carrier]

coberry7 once bubbled...


To further clarify about Keyman pricing...

Walter is correct.

What has not been clarified is that even if you are a 'KeyMan' you cannot buy the gear at these prices without going through a sales presentation, and in my case, a test about the equipment, before filling out your order form. These sessions usually happen once a year for a 'KeyMan' to update his gear or for him to replace beat up gear.

You cannot order directly from the manufacturer without being invited to do so by the dive shop owner. Working in a dive shop, I am unable to directly order from the manufacturer at any other time. I have to purchase my gear at whatever discount my dive shop allows me.

I do not know how the person referred to in the original post got away with this. I'm skeptical on a few points, actually.

Actually coberry, not all manufacturers require the sales class. Many do but not all, but you are correct in saying all keyman purchases must be done with the shops permission.

We had a former instructor that tried ordering keyman the same way as the example in the first post. He called the manufacturer, ordered keyman, tried paying for it with credit card and have it direct shipped. Brother Murphy and his laws took effect. The equipment was shipped to our shop, COD, which was promplty refused. The instructor that had ordered it received a call from the manufacturer about our refusal. The he got upset that we refused the shipment. After the owner discussed the situation with him, questioned his masculinity, number of parents and various other aspects of his life, he was strongly advised not to come back to the shop for anything. The manufacturer was advised that this gentleman had not been affiliated with our shop in 2 years and they could handle it any way they wanted. I would have loved to have found out whether he got his equipment or not.

 

[adder70]

pt40fathoms once bubbled...


I've posted the initial posting so as to clarify what has been asked.

First of all, the relationship between the instructor and the LDS has not been clearly stated. If I were to approach this question based on what is the "most common" relationship between instructors and Local Dive Shops. I would have to approach it with the instructor operating as a contractor, hiring out his services to the LDS for an agreed upon level of compensation. This would mean that the instructor maintained his or her own insurance, and supplied his or her own equipment. The LDS would supply all other needed equipment and services, as well as students.

With this relationship, what had happened was nothing more than a retail transaction. The only ethics dilemma here is why the manufacturer informed the LDS of the impending transaction, and in effect asked for permission from the LDS to sell the product to the instructor. At no time was the instructor using either credit or status of the LDS to conduct this transaction. Assuming of course if s/he did it would have been stated in the original question at the beginning of this post. The fact that the instructor was doing business with the manufacturer for the purchase of a product for personal use was none of the LDS's business. Further to that, the owner of the LDS has absolutely no cause for being upset or taking any action towards the instructor that could be considered punitive. If the LDS does in fact take punitive action, the instructor would be within his rights to seek damages from the manufacturer and the LDS.

In short, “YES” there is an ethics dilemma and possibly a legal one as well, but this possible breach is on the actions of the manufacturer and to some extent the LDS.

You appear to have made the assumption that the instructor did not imply that he was calling as a representative of the dive shop. The situation would appear to indicate that he did. If the instructor had not identified himself as associated with the LDS, the rep would not have known whom to inform. I also believe you have to have certain documentation such as a tax number (for sales tax purposes as a retailer) and an agreement with the manufacturer to be considered a dealer and get the special prices. If that is the case then the instructor's actions were clearly unethical and likely criminal, as it was NOT a retail transaction but tax evasion and identity theft among other things.

The rep clearly should have accepted the order and informed the owner as he did. This eliminates any unnecessary hassle for the instructor, since if the owner gave approval the instructor would have simply received the items as requested. It also gave clear evidence of the attempt to circumvent the law and possibly damage the relationaship between the LDS and the manufacturer.

 

[coberry7]

Actually coberry, not all manufacturers require the sales class. Many do but not all, but you are correct in saying all keyman purchases must be done with the shops permission.

I've only dealt with one manufacturer. I should have been clear that I didn't mean to lump all manufacturer's into one pot regarding their keyman policies. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[pt40fathoms]

adder70 once bubbled...


You appear to have made the assumption that the instructor did not imply that he was calling as a representative of the dive shop. The situation would appear to indicate that he did. If the instructor had not identified himself as associated with the LDS, the rep would not have known whom to inform. I also believe you have to have certain documentation such as a tax number (for sales tax purposes as a retailer) and an agreement with the manufacturer to be considered a dealer and get the special prices. If that is the case then the instructor's actions were clearly unethical and likely criminal, as it was NOT a retail transaction but tax evasion and identity theft among other things.

The rep clearly should have accepted the order and informed the owner as he did. This eliminates any unnecessary hassle for the instructor, since if the owner gave approval the instructor would have simply received the items as requested. It also gave clear evidence of the attempt to circumvent the law and possibly damage the relationaship between the LDS and the manufacturer.

Boy, that's sure a lot of assumptions you've made there. I must say that I can see your point of view, however, lets try this little scenario on for size and see if fits.

M = Manufacturer
I = Instructor
DS = Dive Shop

(phone) Brrrring.

M - “OMG (Oh My God) Divers, if it floats, well help you sink it. How can I help you”

I - “Hi, my names Bubbles, and before you go on and start laughing, I’m 6’8” and know where your office is”.

M – “gulp, err yes sir how may I be of assistance”.

I – “I’d like to order some dive gear”.

M – “Well sir you’ve called the right place, we make dive gear, however I must tell you that we only sell to authorized outlets”.

I – “Well, I’m an instructor, would that help”.

M – “Yes it would, we do sell equipment to instructors who are affiliated with a local dive store. Are you and independent instructor or are you affiliated with a dive shop”.

I – “I’m currently working with We’be Divun Scubie Shoppe, will that do”.

M – “It sure nuf will, what can I sell you today”.

I – “How bout that new self inflating ankle mounted buoyancy thingies with the latest CO2 emergency assent option”.

M – “A wise choice if I might say myself, It’ll be the latest rage in diving, right along with our underwater mask squeegee. How would you like to pay for this fine new product.”

I – “Will DrainYourWallet card be acceptable”?

M – “Sure will, would you like it shipped to the store”.

I – “Nope, it just for me, could you ship it to my home address”?

M – “No problem, what’s the address”.

I – “0101 Bit St. Silicone Valley 91010101”

M- “It’ll be there 5 to 7 working days, will their be anything else Mr. Er um Bubbles?”

I – “Was that a snicker I just heard?”

M – “No sir, it must be a bad phone connection, my apologies”.

I – “Yeah, sure, bad phone connection I’ll bet. That’ll be all for now”.

**A few minutes later**

(phone in dive shop)Brrrrring

DS – “We’be Divun Scubie Shoppe, how may I be of service”.

M – “Hey Leo, this is Sphynkter, you got a guy instructing for you named (laughter) Bubbles”.

DS – “Shhh don’t laugh so loud, guys got ears like an Elephant, why you askin”.

M – “Well I’m just checkin, you see he just ordered some gear and you know our policy, so I’m just makin sure he’s legit”.

DS – “Yeah he’s one of my instructors, but why didn’t he buy it from me, he knows I’ll only add a few points to the price for handling”.

M – “Well I can answer that, I’m just checking to make sure (more raucous laughter) Bubbles was legit. Talk to you later”.


So as you can see, this may have started out as a completely normal transaction. All this is of course speculation, however with the absence of complete details and hard facts, speculation is all we have.