Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest
- Thread starter boulderjohn
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Six Feet Under
Contributor
Bob DBF
Contributor
The reason why professional societies and certification agencies need to be proactive is because when government decides to do something the first place they look are these groups and if they are failing to regulate themselves by for example sanctioning members breaking standards or addressing safety concerns then the government will step in and they might just take over the whole thing.
Right now with the latest death no matter what the cause is they can't say well that was a one incident in a well self regulated sport.
Right now with the latest death no matter what the cause is they can't say well that was a one incident in a well self regulated sport.
OP
Professional societies and certification agencies are reluctant to be proactive because of the fear of litigation. When I speak of this fear of litigation, I am not talking about a specific incident but rather to the implication of their taking proactive on their relationship to diving outside of certification.
A couple of years ago, PADI was successfully sued for nearly $2 million in a case in which 2 DMs called the roll on a 3-tank dive and missed someone at the end of the first dive. These DMs were not acting in a professional capacity but were instead acting simply as members of the dive club that had chartered the boat. Despite the fact that PADI as an organization had absolutely nothing to do with their work or the incident, they were successfully sued under the theory that the DMs were "agents" of PADI and thus under PADI control at all times. Under this theory, any dive agency can be sued after any incident, even if it is not in any way related to instruction. I would expect all dive agencies to go out of business pretty quickly.
After that, PADI sent out a notice to all instructors and dive shops using their names, telling them that they are NOT "Agents" of PADI. They changed all liability waivers to reflect that--divers signing such a waiver indicate that they understand that the professional with whom they are working is not an agent pf PADI. This means that PADI is not controlling the actions of that individual.
Even after that, PADI was involved in a lawsuit in Utah in which they were sued under the theory that the instructor involved was acting as an agent of PADI. They settled the case before trial.
I am not an attorney, but it seems to me that if the agencies take proactive measures to deal with situations like this, it would imply that anyone who is a member of that agency is indeed acting under the control of that organization and is indeed an agent of that organization. That would have far reaching effects on litigation in cases that have nothing to do with caves.
A couple of years ago, PADI was successfully sued for nearly $2 million in a case in which 2 DMs called the roll on a 3-tank dive and missed someone at the end of the first dive. These DMs were not acting in a professional capacity but were instead acting simply as members of the dive club that had chartered the boat. Despite the fact that PADI as an organization had absolutely nothing to do with their work or the incident, they were successfully sued under the theory that the DMs were "agents" of PADI and thus under PADI control at all times. Under this theory, any dive agency can be sued after any incident, even if it is not in any way related to instruction. I would expect all dive agencies to go out of business pretty quickly.
After that, PADI sent out a notice to all instructors and dive shops using their names, telling them that they are NOT "Agents" of PADI. They changed all liability waivers to reflect that--divers signing such a waiver indicate that they understand that the professional with whom they are working is not an agent pf PADI. This means that PADI is not controlling the actions of that individual.
Even after that, PADI was involved in a lawsuit in Utah in which they were sued under the theory that the instructor involved was acting as an agent of PADI. They settled the case before trial.
I am not an attorney, but it seems to me that if the agencies take proactive measures to deal with situations like this, it would imply that anyone who is a member of that agency is indeed acting under the control of that organization and is indeed an agent of that organization. That would have far reaching effects on litigation in cases that have nothing to do with caves.
Jack Hammer
Contributor
@boulderjohn
John, this is part of the double edged sword I feel many are overlooking. I agree there needs to be a way to sanction or revoke bad instructors credentials without a written complaint by a student. Unfortunately, i believe many agencies will open the flood gates on litigation against themselves for any incident that occurs if they are not extremely careful in how they go about it.
John, this is part of the double edged sword I feel many are overlooking. I agree there needs to be a way to sanction or revoke bad instructors credentials without a written complaint by a student. Unfortunately, i believe many agencies will open the flood gates on litigation against themselves for any incident that occurs if they are not extremely careful in how they go about it.
The most memorable sign I have seen was a little sign nailed to a tree with two brass hooks screwed into it and numbers hanging from it. The sign said "divers have died in this spring" below the numbers.
That the numbers needed to be easily and quickly changed made a profound impression on me. 30 or 40 years later it is still in my head it was so effective. I believe it was at Gennie/Turkey Roost.
Adam Grose
Contributor
The last part of that is where you may have problems.... getting people to take responsibility for their own actions. it seems (to me, anyway), that people are quick to blame someone else for their issues, instead of thinking "hey... maybe this was my own fault". Just my 2 cents worth (or maybe less that 2 cents)
Adam
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