VIPs on Scuba Cylinders/Divers Den/Baltimore, MD

[webedivin2000]

Effective May 12, 2013 we will no longer fill cylinders with VIP's that are not performed by a Dive Center or Facility that does not have liability insurance to perform these services.

We recently had a aluminum pony bottle with a current generic VIP sticker on it that was cracked on 5 consecutive threads. Had it not been scene leaking in our fill station, we still use water cooling, it may have caused some serious issues. WE also are having customers go directly to the hydro facility and bring us tanks with generic vip stickers. In a lot of cases these cylinder have rust in them from the hydro process and not drying them correctly that must be removed. Hence a proper VIP and cleaning is usually required.

I have been challenged by a few customers over the years as to there ability to perform VIPs and stickers!!! I am not budging on this policy! We are required to play by the standards of the industry an expect all others to do the same!

If your stickers are not from a facility with dive center liability insurance for servicing equipment we will not fill the tanks!!!

 

[redacted]

How do you know what insurance some other dive shop carries?

 

[offthewall1]

I understand Chaz's concerns here. Nobody wants a tank rupturing on themselves, their employees or their customers.

The problem I see here is that targeting "generic" VIP stickers could greatly limit his tank filling business. It is a tough situation... but he should reconsider his position - here is why.

1. PADI, SDI and other agencies issue VIP stickers and they are in use all over the world. Most agency stickers do not have the dive shops name on them... so there is no way to know who did the VIP or if a VIP was even done. You could perhaps have unscrupulous people buying the stickers and simply sticking them on tanks to save money. Are you going to refuse to fill every tanks with a PADI, SDI etc... sticker on it?

2. The even more generic ones from say Trident, Innovative Scuba etc... are also used by some smaller dive shops and independent instructors etc... who are qualified to do VIP's. Are you going to turn all of those away too?

3. Most importantly, it doesn't matter even if the VIP sticker is from a qualified shop. The tank could still be bad and rupture when it is brought in. If the VIP is done say in May, who knows what that tank has gone through between May and say July. Maybe the tank was over pressurized somewhere causing the crack, maybe it was dropped causing a crack... there is just no way to know.

4. Water in the tanks happens many ways and at any time. Even if the VIP is your own... If you VIP it in June for the customer and he dives the tank to empty - water / condensation can creep in causing rust before he brings it back to you for the next VIP.

It is an unfortunate situation in the dive industry that compressed air tanks are a necessary hazard - and even when all precautions are taken - bad things can happen.

I spoke with Chaz via phone about this.. and I agree that he has every right to create whatever policy he wants for his store - it is his store. I also agree with him that handwritten blank VIP tags and generic tags are suspect. I just believe that many shops tags are also suspect... not because they are negligent, but because the cracks and water he's finding in some of these tanks can happen to shop VIP'd tanks the same as they can happen to non-shop VIP'd tanks.

When I use to own a dive shop I had many tanks come in for the annual VIP that had issues; surface rust, a puddle of water etc... Usually these tanks had VIP's from other area shops or out of state shops. I even had a few of ours come back that I had personally looked at... and I know for a fact were clean when they left the store. I would ask the person if they had breathed their tank down to zero at any point and the common answer was yes... or they had bled the tank and left it sitting in their garage or shed. These things happen. I once found a tank with a crack in the thread. The guy had bought the tank from Ebay. He was mad at me because I told him the tank wasn't safe to use. He stomped out of my store. Not my problem.

I don't know what the answer is to the situation... To be honest, there is no answer. It's an unfortunate part of the game - unless you're going to require a VIP before every tank fill.

I don't know what the answer is

 

[Wookie]

Chaz' fill station, Chaz' business. I do a lot of things that most folks would say hurts my business. I sleep well at night knowing that I'm doing the right thing, whether or not it is right.

Stick to your principles. Chaz. They are the only thing folks will remember you for when you are gone.

 

[redacted]

I agree - his shop, his rules. Quite frankly, I would understand why a shop might decide to only fill tanks that have been inspected by that shop - after all, they are losing $$ anyway. What I don't understand is how the shop will know what insurance the inspector has (and what good it will do the shop anyway). I am really surprised that this notice is posted on Scubaboard but can not be found on his website. I do have a bee up my butt over these non-standard surprise rules that seem to pop up with some shops/ops.

 

[offthewall1]

The scuba industry is no different then any other. Short of complete obvious negligence that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt - liability is very hard to prove.

People buy and sell used scuba equipment (tanks included) all the time. Lets use a regulator as an example. Taking Chaz's theory to an extreme - Will Chaz require all travelers on a shop run trip to use only regulators he rents them... or perhaps only regulators that he himself services? How will he know where they got their regulators and who last serviced them or if they have been serviced at all. Will he require proof of service by his shop before allowing you to sign up for his trip? If a diver dies on his trip and it is found the regulator was at fault... wouldn't Chaz be more liable if he had serviced it? Perhaps it would be better if he hadn't serviced it. Yes, the diver died on his trip... but he wasn't responsible for that malfunctioning regulator, he had never serviced it - or maybe he is responsible - because he didn't inspect it and service it himself before allowing it to be used on his trip. Maybe the regulator was store bought from Chaz's shop, maybe a local competitor, maybe Ebay, maybe right here on Scubaboard... is Scubaboard liable for allowing a faulty regulator to be sold on it's website? Is the original seller responsible? It's hard to prove anyone is liable for anything - because the chain of custody for items such as this is usually broken at every step of the way. Example: Regulator is bought by person from LP. Buyer dives it 10 dives. He then lends it to a buddy who dives it twice. Buddy returns it and original buyer sells it on Ebay. When it is sold it was clearly working. New buyer dives it 5 times. The takes it for service at LDS. Sits in closet for two years not dove. It is sold on Craigslist to a new buyer. He dives it for a week. Sells it on Ebay. It is working when he sells it. Last service more than 3 years ago. New buyer buys it, dives it on two trips no problem. On the third trip the diver dies due to malfunctioning regulator. Who is liable? The manufacturer? The previous owner? The shop that last serviced it? UPS who shipped it? Ebay? Craigslist? Anyone... Anyone? No one. It is impossible to prove negligence on the part of anyone except the person who died... because he didn't have it inspected and serviced prior to using it. It was working when it was sold... it even worked on the first two trips after the guy bought it. It malfunctioned on the third trip. Folks this is the reality of used scuba gear... the same as anything else. It applies to tanks, regulators, BCD's etc... ALL USED DIVE GEAR MUST BE INSPECTED AND SERVICED BY QUALIFIED PERSONNEL BEFORE USE. Even with that said, there are no guarantees. I'm sure many of you can tell stories about how you took a working regulator in for service and it came back to you not working right after service. In those cases, someone might be liable if you used the item and were injured or killed - but keep in mind, YOU are the last line of defense and YOU are responsible for your own safety. Test the gear in a pool before going into the extremes.

 

[Wookie]

The scuba industry is no different then any other. Short of complete obvious negligence that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt - liability is very hard to prove.

People buy and sell used scuba equipment (tanks included) all the time. Lets use a regulator as an example. Taking Chaz's theory to an extreme - Will Chaz require all travelers on a shop run trip to use only regulators he rents them... or perhaps only regulators that he himself services? How will he know where they got their regulators and who last serviced them or if they have been serviced at all. Will he require proof of service by his shop before allowing you to sign up for his trip? If a diver dies on his trip and it is found the regulator was at fault... wouldn't Chaz be more liable if he had serviced it? Perhaps it would be better if he hadn't serviced it. Yes, the diver died on his trip... but he wasn't responsible for that malfunctioning regulator, he had never serviced it - or maybe he is responsible - because he didn't inspect it and service it himself before allowing it to be used on his trip. Maybe the regulator was store bought from Chaz's shop, maybe a local competitor, maybe Ebay, maybe right here on Scubaboard... is Scubaboard liable for allowing a faulty regulator to be sold on it's website? Is the original seller responsible? It's hard to prove anyone is liable for anything - because the chain of custody for items such as this is usually broken at every step of the way. Example: Regulator is bought by person from LP. Buyer dives it 10 dives. He then lends it to a buddy who dives it twice. Buddy returns it and original buyer sells it on Ebay. When it is sold it was clearly working. New buyer dives it 5 times. The takes it for service at LDS. Sits in closet for two years not dove. It is sold on Craigslist to a new buyer. He dives it for a week. Sells it on Ebay. It is working when he sells it. Last service more than 3 years ago. New buyer buys it, dives it on two trips no problem. On the third trip the diver dies due to malfunctioning regulator. Who is liable? The manufacturer? The previous owner? The shop that last serviced it? UPS who shipped it? Ebay? Craigslist? Anyone... Anyone? No one. It is impossible to prove negligence on the part of anyone except the person who died... because he didn't have it inspected and serviced prior to using it. It was working when it was sold... it even worked on the first two trips after the guy bought it. It malfunctioned on the third trip. Folks this is the reality of used scuba gear... the same as anything else. It applies to tanks, regulators, BCD's etc... ALL USED DIVE GEAR MUST BE INSPECTED AND SERVICED BY QUALIFIED PERSONNEL BEFORE USE. Even with that said, there are no guarantees. I'm sure many of you can tell stories about how you took a working regulator in for service and it came back to you not working right after service. In those cases, someone might be liable if you used the item and were injured or killed - but keep in mind, YOU are the last line of defense and YOU are responsible for your own safety. Test the gear in a pool before going into the extremes.

Chaz is filling tanks. Adding a tremendous amount of energy to them. In his basement. Your regulator example is silly. Chaz isn't breathing from the regulator, no innocent bystander will be injured walking past his shop if the regulator fails while being used.

Lets use another example. Chaz wants to hire you and your boat to take his peeps diving for oysters on a shop sponsored trip. You had a bad year and didn't get in-water liability or contractors general liability on your boat, just hull and P&I. You suffer a fatal heart attack, the boat rams into the side of a tanker which explodes, killing 270 folks at Crab-Fest in Fell's Point. Chaz's fault? Was if he didn't get you to add him as an additional insured on your policy.

 

[webedivin2000]

Dam Frank quite and example!!! Surely ruined the crab feast, LOL!!!! When I made the post my intention was to make people aware that I was not ready to have the ashes of my employees or myself spread earlier than necessary! However since that time and some consideration I decided to take my stance!!
My liability insurance almost doubled this year to cover these type accidents!!! So if my staff gets hurt and the person that conducted the inspection is not qualified and uninsured I take the fall!!
Hence I am going to have to find the inspector, if I can, generic decals have no identification, try to get a court to hold them liable, hope they have insurance To cover themselves, be forced to take there worldly assets to recover my out of pocket loss if not,etc, etc!!!!
So I think I am going to leave it at my shop, my playing field, my rules!!!!!! A loss of a few air fills oh well!!!

 

[offthewall1]

OK Wookie... lets keep it realistic... The number of known tank ruptures is so small we can count them on two hands. All the examples are extreme and ridiculous. The bigger point is that a tank Chaz inspects is just as likely to go boom on him as any other... unless he conducts a visual inspection before each and every fill - and even then - it could happen if the person filling the tank makes a mistake, overfills the tank and the burst disc fails to release.

If Chaz inspects my tank today and I drop it lifting it out of my truck tomorrow, it may go boom the very next day... with Chaz's VIP sticker on it. The whole argument is silly... as is Chaz's stance. That is the reality of it... but as I said before... Chaz has every right to do what he wants in his store. I support that silliness 100%.

I just can't figure out how Chaz is going to know if every VIP sticker that walks in his store is done by a qualified person with insurance. Is he saying he will only fill tanks with Divers Den stickers on them?

So every time a customer walks into his store with anything else he is going to refuse to fill it?... Or is he going to call each and every dive shop in the area and request a copy of the certifiers technician cert and proof of insurance? What about the folks who move here with their tanks from out of state.. going to call all of those shops too?

I like to think Chaz and I have a great relationship... so this isn't about he and I... I'm just making this argument for the sake of him and the industry. If every shop took his stance... no one would be able to get their tanks filled anywhere but their home store. Thank god people don't travel to Baltimore to dive. Imagine if all the shops in travel destinations say from NY, NJ, NC and FL took this stance... no one would own tanks.

Just being realistic here.

 

[maniago]

I support that silliness 100%.

Chaz is a smart business man if he incentivizes his clients to come to him for VIPS and fills. Lets say, buy a bunk 25 fill card at 50% off regular fill price and get free vip from him. Or buy $750 of merchandize and get X number free fills and a VIP or something like that.

If he chooses to do the opposite, then people vote with their feet. Its not rocket science. People take the path of least resistance....

The reason people VIP their own is because the financial incentive is huge to do so. Have 5 tanks VIPed in one year, and you paid the price of the class. Works for me.