Wall Dives as Part of OW Certification Checkout Dives

[Neilwood]

This has turned out to be a thought-provoking thread for me as an Instructor, and raises several issues. By way of background: I dove Grand Turk in December, with three others, two of whom I had previously certified as OW divers (one of whom I also previously certified as an AOW Diver, and Deep Diver), and a third diver for whom I conducted OW sidemount training. So, I was familiar with their skills. On one of our two dives (Tunnels), we went out over the edge of the wall and swam along for a while, before noticing that the downcurrent coming over the edge above us seemed to have picked up a bit, after which we swam back up and over the edge to get a more reasonable 'hard bottom' depth beneath us. For the OW diver, who I had just certified in late October, it was (only) her 3rd post-certification dive. She thoroughly enjoyed it, and handled her buoyancy control like an experienced veteran. We all had a blast. I was probably the more anxious of the 4 of us - not for me, as I loved the dive and 'exposure', but for the other three. Yet, I asked them about it afterward, and none of them were bothered by knowing the abyssal depths below them.

My thoughts:

1. I cannot publicly 'condone' a (PADI) instructor breaking depth limits, by even a foot or two. The limits are just that - maximum depths - and they are established for a reason, so that there are specific parameters within which training dives can be conducted safely. But, I suspect it is not altogether uncommon, across agencies, to have such depth limit extrusions occur. I have seen done just what you apparently experienced - the instructor swims along with a student, maintaining a depth limit of 60 feet on his/her computer, only to find out after the dive that a student's computer showed a maximum of 61 or 62 feet, and has the student log, as the maximum, the 60 feet (that appeared on the Instructor's computer, and which is compatible with standards). I am not justifying the practice, just pointing out that it occurs. Yes. An Instructor would be 'ill-advised' to sign a OW student logbook page that listed a maximum depth that exceeded the standard for that particular training dive.

2. As an Instructor, I would probably take a single student out over the abyssal wall, depending on current conditions, my comfort with their precision of buoyancy control, etc., on Dive 3 or 4. But, I would discuss such a plan with them before the dive. And, I would not do so beyond a 1:1 ratio. Simply not worth the (small) risk. I would plan for the worst - a student has complete loss of buoyancy control and I have to provide buoyancy for both of us - and comfortably anticipate the best.

I agree and can understand that happening as computers might read depths slightly differently and 1-2ft is not a major issue but the OP was talking about three out of four dives being below the maximum depths (assuming it was dives 2,3 & 4 makes it 12ft, 6ft and 2ft over). If it was not dives 2,3 & 4 that makes it even worse. 12ft and 6ft to me are significant amounts which would concern me during instruction as it suggests the instructor was not in full control of the dive profile.

 

[WrmBluH2O]

I agree and can understand that happening as computers might read depths slightly differently and 1-2ft is not a major issue but the OP was talking about three out of four dives being below the maximum depths (assuming it was dives 2,3 & 4 makes it 12ft, 6ft and 2ft over). If it was not dives 2,3 & 4 that makes it even worse. 12ft and 6ft to me are significant amounts which would concern me during instruction as it suggests the instructor was not in full control of the dive profile.

To clarify, below are the max depths and order of the dives:

OW 1: Max Depth 46 ft; (over hard bottom)
OW 2: Max Depth 66 ft
OW 3: Max Depth 61 ft
OW 4: Max Depth 52 ft

 

[WrmBluH2O]

delete (duplicate post)

 

[Patoux01]

Honestly, my max depths are far beyond the standards, for about all my OW/1* dives. I'm still here, and while I would do the training differently should I be an instructor (not because of standards, simply because I believe there's other priorities than depth), I don't think it's necessarily dangerous etc etc.

You sound much more concerned about it than you should (imo). You were probably more than capable of it, even if something would happen.


Just my (dangerous) 2bar...

 

[WrmBluH2O]

Honestly, my max depths are far beyond the standards, for about all my OW/1* dives. I'm still here, and while I would do the training differently should I be an instructor (not because of standards, simply because I believe there's other priorities than depth), I don't think it's necessarily dangerous etc etc.

You sound much more concerned about it than you should (imo). You were probably more than capable of it, even if something would happen.


Just my (dangerous) 2bar...

Hi Patoux01,

Thanks for your feedback. My intention had merely been to clarify which max depths corresponded to which dives for Neilwood, Colliam7, and anyone else I might have unintentionally confused on that point.

I started this thread (one of my first here on SB) in the vein of, "hey, I'm curious, how common is this" (i.e., wall dives as part of say OW dives 2-4). The actual max depths reached for each dive hadn't concerned me because I didn't even know about the 40/40/60/60 at the time.

While over the wall when I went from 60 to 66ft was the only time I realized I had made an error that I needed to correct for.

 

[Neilwood]

To clarify, below are the max depths and order of the dives:

OW 1: Max Depth 46 ft; (over hard bottom)
OW 2: Max Depth 66 ft
OW 3: Max Depth 61 ft
OW 4: Max Depth 52 ft

Thanks for that additional info.

Hi Patoux01,

Thanks for your feedback. My intention had merely been to clarify which max depths corresponded to which dives for Neilwood, Colliam7, and anyone else I might have unintentionally confused on that point.

I started this thread (one of my first here on SB) in the vein of, "hey, I'm curious, how common is this" (i.e., wall dives as part of say OW dives 2-4). The actual max depths reached for each dive hadn't concerned me because I didn't even know about the 40/40/60/60 at the time.

While over the wall when I went from 60 to 66ft was the only time I realized I had made an error that I needed to correct for.

The reason why these are concerning is that, for the instructor, they are a clear violation of standards which as you know know should only be to 40ft for dives 1&2 and 60 for dives 3&4. The only dive complying with those standards is actually the last one which is concerning from the point of view that the instructor should know and adhere to these maximum depths for the OW check out dives.

Patoux01 - after the checkout dives, you can dive to whatever you wish (there are no scuba police after all) but during those 4 dives there are clear maximums which instructors should stick to.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba.]

Doing your OW dives in 7,000 feet of water is a good reason to make sure you have an instructor who teaches you how to clear your mask without having to kneel on the bottom to do it.

I have taught OW dives in very deep areas, and I have never seen students have a problem.

On my first trip after certification, going over (actually, through) the wall and looking down into the abyss below was the exact moment I became committed to scuba diving. Before then, I thought it would be something I did on vacation every few years. When I came out of the wall naturally buoyant and looking down, it was like stepping off a cliff and not falling. I thought, "Wow! This is really, really cool!" I was hooked.

 

[scagrotto]

My wife did her OW checkout dives during a dive shop trip to a Caribbean destination where the norm is a 2 tank dive that's a deep dive along a wall followed by a shallow dive (60' nominal maximum, but there's usually room to get far deeper if you really wanted to). There wasn't a convenient shore dive option, so she and the instructor (the one who taught her entire course) came along on the standard boat dive. IIRC, the local DM's made some effort to choose a site that was better suited than others we might have gone to, but she did her skills in the sand at 60' or so, 1:1 with her instructor. I think her 2nd dive did have a max depth of 40' but it may have been 45 or 50'. This was all clearly discussed ahead of time, and she had the option of skipping the first dive and starting her checkout dives on the 2nd dive of the day. We certainly didn't consider it problematic in the least.

I'd guess that sort of thing is (or was) a fairly common expedient used when it wasn't practical to get 1 or 2 students to a shallower site. This was many years ago, when far fewer instructors were as diligent about neutral buoyancy early on, and doing drills mid-water was much less common.

with only 12 dives completed we did the Grand Cayman North Wall which is a 6000 drop

You're far from alone. I went ahead and did AOW very shortly after my OW class, but my 6th dive after getting the OW card was a 100' wall dive off of GC. There's water that's 6000' deep near by, but the walls aren't really that steep. As note above, it doesn't have to be anywhere near that deep to cause your last problem if you screw up your buoyancy badly enough.

Anything below 40 is not something an OW student will easily come back from if he drops there

I can only conclude that the dive industry disagrees. If they thought that getting to 50, 60, or even 70' resulted in a significant risk I think there would be a requirement for a hard bottom, and perhaps a shallower maximum depth. Of course, to some extent they're assuming that instructors won't usually screw up. Aside from what the dive industry thinks, I find the idea ridiculous since the only qualifier you used was that it's your opinion. It's certainly possible that somebody could manage to get in serious trouble, but that's possible at shallow depths, too. If somebody gets really negative and starts dropping like a rock from 30 to 40' and the instructor doesn't solve the problem quickly an OW student may not "easily come back", but I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that the instructor is at (major) fault. If a student is properly weighted they'll use air faster and it will take a bit longer to ascend from 60, 70 or 80', but it's not a difficult skill. Other than the time and extra air swimming up from 130' is the same as swimming up from 20'. Once again, it's up to the instructor to make sure students aren't overweighted, and to monitor their air.

 

[Patoux01]

I never mentionned feet. I quoted someone talking in meters, it seemed obvious that my reply would be as well.

Swimming up from 130' (== 40m, right?) is the same as from 20' ? Yeah, I can see us disagree there.

 

[PhatD1ver]

I did a DSD experience in Bohol Panglao in 2011, from the beach, they took my wife and I out about 500m on the boat, then we dropped in and were in about 10m of water until we went over the edge of the wall and down to about 15m (of course buoyancy wasn't perfect and he told me I 'cheated' a little when he had to tell me to come back up. My wife found the wall very disconcerting, she still doesn't like a bottomless feeling.

Then again, we visited Saipan, and at Naftan, all you have to do is turn south to swim to the Mariannes trench. Which it seemed like she was trying to do when I caught up with her at 33m and told her we needed to get back up to 30m which was the briefed depth.