Warped View of the Dive World

[Diver0001]

I think there are way too many "local" statements typed as "absolutes" on the main forums.

Well you're certainly right about that. I agree with you that there are few absolutes. I also think that some practices can translate to different environments if you're willing. While I wouldn't say that everyone "must" get spring-straps, to use your example, I can see them working every bit as well for divers in Hawaii as they do for divers in the Pacific NW.

As a suggestion, there's nothing wrong with it. As a 'demand' however.... meh ... There are some divers who believe that their way is the "only" way but by and large I ignore that because closed minds are seldom the best informed. I'm particularly amused, for example, by posts where people say that things they've never tried are "wrong" or won't work even though other people are out there doing it. I think that might be what you're getting at.

Perhaps the problem you're having is that you're trying to win arguments about things that are best ignored?

R..

 

[Diver0001]

After reading roturners reply I had to go back and read your entire post again to make sure I didn't miss something but I never could see where you made any statement about any other local dive scenes unless he was referring to other possible posts you had made on other threads.

Oh come on....

When he said

I think the "fringe" of the Dive World (those not in 70 degree F or warmer water and those not "recreational") contending that the Dive Industry is not supporting their Dive World

Do you think he meant that the scene in Maui was the "Fringe" or that divers in Maui contend that the diving industry is not supporting their "Dive world". He's making a sweeping generalization about everything EXCEPT divers in Maui right there.

To me he was implying is that people who don't conform to his vision of the "dive world" are "fringe" and he's nice enough to define that as divers who are "not in 70 degree F or warmer water and those not 'recreational'"

Whose local diving do you think he was talking about when he said that?

R..

 

[CamG]

Greetings halemano interesting thread with good dialogue.
I am glad to admit that my personal view on diving, "opinions" are really insignificant when it comes to the rest of the world.
Though we can make generalizations, "observations" it really is case specific, geographically, environmentally, not to mention "it is the way it is done" attitude!
I like to constantly and at all times try to think outside the box!
I have learned far more, discovered new things, and understood the why's of many different diving styles and configurations.

I do not see you attaching or feel threatened by any statement you have made but I can see where some might.
I love to study, research, ponder, new ideas and people themselves to learn.
My OW instructor not only taught us this important concept but I learned to live in this pursuit.
I have learned much from those who are contrary to the norm or even perceived as heretics. I seek truth and forego the folly.
Occasional if someones dive practice is very dangerous and unsafe I try to intervene and make a case but in the end I try to exit as friends.

Diving is large enough for all forms and all people to share together.
As long as you are open minded there is no end to the methods and or applications.
I choose this approach to learn all I can to round myself and dive many different environments with the proper configurations and methods.
This might be a little different twist on your post and as I said MY OPINION, MY VIEW really is insignificant anyway. It is up to you to decide what way or how to roll.

CamG Keep diving....Keep training....Keep learning!

 

[tddfleming]

Being fairly new here to SB, I have seen him make some very bold statements. However, I think that all our views are based on what our exposure is. Looking at his profile, I can only pick out FL and HI. With that in mind, I am sure he is correct on most of his statements. Just as if I took my limited exposure of divers based on what I have seen, I would have a whole different view. To him, the local, cold water divers are on the "fringe." Outside of what he sees as normal.

When I got cert. this past Sept. I had a whole different view of divers then I do now. 10 years from now, I am sure I will have much different view than I now have. Comparing, what I knew from cert. class from people I met on SB, there are 2 sets of divers (in my mind). From the small amount of exposure I had from class, I had thought that as divers we just jump in and go about our merry way. My gut told me different and that is what I followed. I and my daughter did not get our drysuit speciality, because I would not just follow a herd of divers down. I stopped my daughter and I at 40+ feet and told DM we were thumbing the dive. She could go to deeper deapths, with a inst (that is what we were told) but I did not see how this was with an inst. He was somewhere in the water, no where in sight. He would not sign because we thumbed the dive. So be it. Up to this point I had thought all divers were careless, thrill seekers. But I have since found that to be untrue. But at that point in my life and the exposure I had, that is what I believed. I could go on with what made me think this, but my thought on this is that our view is based on our exposure, where we live, our life experiences, and our own bias. With changes in lifestyles, locations, families, exposures, all is bound to change. Unless, that people is so closed minded that nothing will penetrate to allow change. We all have our own baggage to bring to the table. But it is the person that can see others perspective that is the bigger person and allow it to be correct also. There is almost just never one answer to any problem or question.

 

[herbdb]

I think you need to visit my local dive site and see the number of divers being certified in water that is never warmer than 60 degrees at training depths.

There are large dive communities on the West coast of the US, the northeast and Great Lakes that never see warm waters. We are the divers you see vacationing in the warm water resorts, but that is not the only diving we do.

Of course we dive AL80s when you see us, that is the standard rental tank in resort areas. I am not going to pay to ship my steel 120's when I travel for diving.

Sure there are lots of reckless new divers, but they are a small minority. Perhaps you are jaded from spending so much time in warm vacation resorts.

I can't wait for April when our local diving begins. The water temp will be up to 55 or 60 if we are lucky. I will be making a trip to the Keys next month and making some warm up dives.

 

[DaleC]

Statistical analysis always breaks down at the individual level. I answer no to all of the majority assertions above yet I dive locally, regularily, am involved in a club and active with other local divers. To put another spin on things I could say the following:

The majority of divers do not dive locally, regularily, are not involved in clubs and are not active with other local divers.

In my mind this does not really make them divers so...

The majority of divers are not really divers!

but I would never say that as it makes no sense.

 

[Doc]

... the anniversary of my first broken bone, when I was 3 years old, skiing at Cooper Hill Ski Area, Colorado.

Cooper? No sh*t. How'd you ever get there?

(everybody else prolly thinks you meant "Copper", just down the road)

 

[BDSC]

From your post I would say you have a pretty good idea how it is in Maui but are completely clueless as to the overal big-picture world wide.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion he is "completely clueless as to the overal big-picture world wide." He made the following statement:

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made in waters 70 degrees and warmer.

I agree with that as have others. Do you disagree?

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made with Aluminum 80 cubic foot-ish tanks.

Again I agree. Do you disagree?

Etc. Etc. Etc. So he has made a number of statements that include the phrase, "VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World ".

I may not agree with all of his views but for the most part I think he is spot on when it comes to the "VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives. His statements may not represent your local diving conditions and it may not represent the local diving conditions off the coast of Canada but I certainly don't see how he has missed the mark on the "VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World."

It indicates 'ignorance' as opposed to a lack of realism.

His views seem pretty realistic to me and it has to others. I don't see any "ignorance" at all. He may be ignorant of your local diving conditions but he's not talking about your local diving conditions. He's talking about, "the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World."

I think what people object to isn't so much the vision you have of your local dive scene but the arrogance you have in making bold and assertive statements about the local dive scene elsewhere when really, you're completely clueless.

Again, he didn't make any "bold and assertive statements" about any local dive scenes. Not even his own. He just made statements about the "VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives in the World". Those statements may be based on his own diving experiences, the diving experiences others may have that he has talked to, or the diving conditions or experiences he has read about in magazines, seen in videos, or read here on ScubaBoard. I've never been diving in Indonesia but I'm not clueless about it. I've never been diving under the ice but I'm not clueless about it after going to an excellent presentation by Neal Pollock of DAN about their research and numerous dives under the ice.

I just think you got pissed when he used the term "fringe".

 

[oldnotdead]

Halemano
With most of my limited dive experience being on Maui. I think that your observations of your local area are accurate. I hope someday to get out onto the other 99.66 of the earths coastline (that above 60 degrees!) to compare. OND

 

[danvolker]

OK, so, on to MY warped view of the dive world

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made in waters 70 degrees F and warmer.

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made with Aluminum 80 cubic foot-ish tanks.


I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made using Vest BC's.

Up to this one I was agreeing....For BC's though.....True in the past, but changing rapidly now in Florida ( which is a huge market for diving)...Rear inflation or BP/wings are seen on almost every boat going out now.

I think the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives in the World are made wearing 5 mm or less wet suits.

Probably true in Hawaii and Florida, but unlikely over the rest of the world.

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are made using full foot fins.

Certainly not in South Florida...most of the shops push open heel, probably do to the one size fits many inventory issue....full foot fins require much more sizes in stock--costs more....few are really high quality....notable exceptions of course, like freedive fins and a few mfg's that make a good full foot scuba fin ( cressi is one)

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational" dives made in the World are "guided dives."

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational divers" will go "deep" within their first dozen logged dives. (>100')

most are guided, but in south Florida, most will not be deeper than 100 feet for quite a while...there is plenty to see in less than 70, and the boats prefer the newbies in shallower, safer depths.

I think it is highly likely the VAST MAJORITY of "recreational divers" will go "under rock" within their first dozen logged dives. (Cavern, not arch)

I would say the opposite....we rarely encounter recreational divers in S Florida that have any interest at all in cave or cavern.

Those last four may very well be due to me living 2 decades in Hawaii. :cool2:

I think the Dive Industry has "evolved" to supply the demand generated by the customers clamoring for the above list.

I think the "fringe" of the Dive World (those not in 70 degree F or warmer water and those not "recreational") contending that the Dive Industry is not supporting their Dive World is like a Lamborghini dealer in Anchorage, Alaska contending that the Auto Industry is not supporting their Auto World.

It would be pretty cool if at least some of the responses followed a similar theme as the list in this post, but I do not require you to respond in any way other than be honest and open about YOUR views of the Dive World &/or the Dive Industry.

I think the dive customers to the industry, responded most strongly to ads pushing less need for extensive training ( no lousy 6 week courses--we want 1 to 3 day quickie courses); I think the industry begain profiting more by selling gear that removes need for skills, and much of the gear actually makes it harder for skills to be developed.
I think the profits in the dive industry have effectively sabotaged the bouyancy skills, trim and propulsive abilities of the diving consumer.
I think the horrible trim and poor bouyancy problems of most divers, led to the mass adoption of split fin style, ultra soft fins, which act as a tiny gear, and are less likely to fatigue a diver swimming head up, feet down, pushing a huge bow wave, carrying 15 pounds too much lead, with 13 to 17 pounds of air compensating in their bc or wing --that should not be compensating for weight which should not be there.
I do not believe the industry really wants instructors to teach good bouyancy and trim--that would mean large reductions in sales of split fins, of monster tanks ( first the 100's, then the 120's and larger); large reductions in sales of 2nd or 3rd bc or bp/wing ( why sell 1 bc when you could sell 2 or 3 to the same diver instead); Sell the vest first, because later there will be more reason to upgrade to a bp/wing.