Watson Murder Case - Discussion

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that's what Attorney General Troy King said. basically Double Jeopardy didn't apply in this case and he's charging him for a capital murder, which is different than what Watson pleaded to.

(of course there are so many different ways you can charger murder/homicide/manslaughter/etc that it is easy to manipulate the legal system).

Though I think this guy is guilty, guilty, guilty, I still think this is sad day for the legal system to try him another country for it. :shakehead:
 
Mike

It's late, can't sleep. What makes you think this guy is guilty,guilty,guilty?
 
Good day Diving Queen

I think you are spot on about Troy King. Don Valeska, of the AG's office, was quoted in the Brisbane Times that he can prove he (Gabe Watson) went to her place of employment without her, before the wedding and attempted to change her insurance. Where do you suppose that witness has been? If that witness really exists, don't you think the Australians would be p.....ed to find that out after nearly six years? Why didn't that witness speak out during the inquest? I think Troy King is using the Thomas family for his own selfish needs.


Well Don Valeska of the AG's office is a first class dirtbag.

he should be dis-barred from being an attorney and then thrown in jail for his misconduct.

He has with held evidence from other trials, which caused a miss-trial. He doesn't care about getting the facts right as long as he win's.
 
It's late, can't sleep. What makes you think this guy is guilty,guilty,guilty?


I don't see anything that points to him not doing this.

his "reaction" to her accident just doesn't add up. Especially when you look at all the people the interviewed afterwards all sounded fishy. (can't remember what show this was on, but it was Nightline, 60 minutes, 48 hours or something like that).

Also I never bought his story about how he returned to the surface to get help. didn't he do a safety stop on the way up also? ( I can't remember as it's been a while since I read that far back. the Australian authorities kept his dive computer as evidence because of that.)

going to her grave to repeatedly destroy her flowers? I mean what is the point of this? (yes I know this doesn't prove guilt).


what I can't get out of this whole thing is that someone was crazy enough to marry him after all of this is up in the air. the creepy thing is that his new wife/finance looks just like his first wife.
 
that's what Attorney General Troy King said. basically Double Jeopardy didn't apply in this case and he's charging him for a capital murder, which is different than what Watson pleaded to.

(of course there are so many different ways you can charger murder/homicide/manslaughter/etc that it is easy to manipulate the legal system).

Though I think this guy is guilty, guilty, guilty, I still think this is sad day for the legal system to try him another country for it. :shakehead:

Double jeopardy is a procedural defense that forbids a defendant from being tried twice for the same crime on the same set of facts. The degree of the "crime" (i.e. murder or manslaughter) has nothing to do with it - double jeopardy still applies. King's office said that they might have a problem with double jeopardy, but they have several arguments they can put forth. The other problem will be proving jurisdiction. If they can prove their claim that Watson went to Tina's job and tried to up her insurance and get his name on her insurance without her knowledge before they were married, then they will argue that significantly alters the set of facts, therefore double jeopardy does not apply. They will also argue that proves he planned Tina's death while still in the U.S., giving them jurisdiction. I have no doubt they will arrest Watson as soon as he steps foot on American soil. I also saw Mark Gerregos, defense attorney for Scott Peterson and Michael Jackson talk about this case on CNN. He said the U.S. has the choice not to bind itself to double jeopardy in a case like this that involves Americans in foreign countries - and he has seen people tried in what would otherwise be a double jeopardy situation. But, he said it is going to be up to a judge. The judge could just as easily rule against them.

It is interesting to examine this plea agreement and the "set of facts" - they were never brought to trial and the agreed-upon "facts" are weakly outlined in all the documents relating to the plea agreement, sentencing and appeal. It could be that nearly all of the "set of facts" as established in the investigation would be fair game for the Alabama prosecutors as "new and significant facts."
 
Double jeopardy applies to any case which has reached a final judgment and a plea is a final judgment -- a mistrial, for example, is not considered a final judgment. So, a plea bargain would preclude another prosecution on the same changes. However, a prosecution by a different government does not constitute double jeopardy and the US courts will not recognize the judgment of the Australian courts as triggering double jeopardy.

Except that I think that the statute whereby jurisdiction is conferred in respect of crimes against US citizens committed abroad only applies if the accused has not been dealt with for that conduct by the country in which the conduct occurred. I wish I could find it again! As I recall the US constitutional principle, it doesn't even apply if the second prosecuting authority is a different state. Seems odd to me, but anyway!
 
Whil I agree that the fact he was charged with murder is irrelevant to sentencing, this is not an accurate statement of the legal position. Even if he had been tried of murder and found not guilty this is not equivalent to him being innocent: R v Darby (1982) 40 ALR 594.

On the contrary I don't think that that case stands for the proposition you advance. Darby was a case about co-conspirators and whether or not the old common law rule that either both are guilty (in a 2 person conspiracy) or neither are guilty. With the majority holding that they would now refuse to follow the old common law rule and allow the conviction of on conspirator to stand notwithstanding the aquittal of the other co-conspirator despite the obvious inconsistency. Thomas was acuitted and (other than the conviction of Thomas being the subject of an appeal as for Darby, which it was not), Darby remained convicted. Thomas is and was entitled to full faith and credit being given to his acquittal (the acquittal not having ben overturned).

Murphy J was correct in his assessment (despite being in the minority) that as between Crown and acquitted subject the rebuttable presumption of innocence is confirmed by the acquittal. That was not challenged by the majority, and in fact that was expressly accepted by the majaorty at [17].

Murphy J was also correct at [13] "It is irrelevant that persons may hold private reservations about the acquitted person's innocence. It is irrelevant that remedies may be available in tort or other branches of private law arising out of the conduct of the acquitted person. The relationship between the State and the accused is not to be assimilated to private law relations"

As the Crown (or sovereign for our US colleagues) is the only entity that can level a murder charge he is innoncent of that charge in the Australian jurisdiction. Let us leave out, for the time being, the issue of private informations (the process). This is a dive web board after all.

As previously posted, Heath v Alabama (1985) is a really interesting read as a lawyer the concept of the each sovereign being entitled, seperately and independently, to the vindication of its laws, whilst superficially attractive has some obvious unfairness when a person has been already convicted on the same set of facts and acts and punnished again in a second trial (all the more so when that second trial is in the same country!). It is an interesting read and I would encourage anyone to read it, here's a link: HEATH V. ALABAMA, 474 U. S. 82 (1985) -- US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez

Here's a further quote re the fifth amendment: Consequently, when the same act transgresses the laws of two sovereigns,

"it cannot be truly averred that the offender has been twice punished for the same offence, but only that by one act he has committed two offences, for each of which he is justly punishable."

In applying the dual sovereignty doctrine, then, the crucial determination is whether the two entities that seek successively to prosecute a defendant for the same course of conduct can be termed separate sovereigns. This determination turns on whether the two entities draw their authority to punish the offender from distinct sources of power". Not sure how this works in relation to the due process amendments to the US constitution and their interpretation, possibly because there are two separate due process amendments (one for the States and one for the Feds). It will probably be interesting in about 14 months time.

Notwithstanding the above and as interesting as law is, that is the only reason I am in it, I would much prefer to talk about diving.

So on that note I had a lovely dive on the bay today bagging about 100 scallops and having a couple of nice beers and snags on the barbie for lunch. Nice day was had. No wto whip up a delicious scallop dinner.
 
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On the contrary I don't think that that case stands for the proposition you advance. Darby was a case about co-conspirators and whether or not the old common law rule that either both are guilty (in a 2 person conspiracy) or neither are guilty. With the majority holding that they would now refuse to follow the old common law rule and allow the conviction of on conspirator to stand notwithstanding the aquittal of the other co-conspirator despite the obvious inconsistency.

I was really relying upon the majority's acceptance of the statement from DPP v Shannon to this effect: "An accused is entitled to be acquitted unless the evidence satisfies the jury beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty. A verdict of not guilty may mean that the jury is certain that the accused is innocent, or it may mean that, although the evidence arouses considerable suspicion, it is insufficient to convince the jury of the accused's guilt beyond reasonable doubt. The verdict of not guilty is consistent with the jury having taken either view." The only effect of the verdict of not guilty is that as between the crown and the accused the accused cannot be tried again for the same offence...or as is put in DPP v Shannon "far as the Crown is concerned, the accused is deemed, in law, to be innocent", but not otherwise.
 
And finally, the provisions dealing with extraterritoriality were in the Federal Criminal Code and not the Alabama one, so the legislative restriction I had previously referred to would not apply to an Alabama prosecution, but having said that there is fairly limited extraterritorial criminal jurisdiction in the states in any event. Which is probably why the original suggestion was a conspiracy charge (although who it is he is supposed to have conspired with I have no idea), or perhaps an extended jurisdiction based on preparatory acts done within the jurisdiction.

Anyway, having seen The Staircase I have little faith even from this distance in southern state prosecutorial authorities.
 

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