What are your buddy "requirements"?

[AquaTec]

It has been interesting readying all your posts.
I have only been briefing them so if i am missing some of the facts i appologise.

as i understand it, there was a four buddy team swimming along at an unknown depth and one of the team members drifted or swam down to about 130 feet.

now i am not sure but either she swam back up or someone had to go get her. and by getting her you put yourself at great risk because of a possible O2 tox hit.

Am I up to speed here.

when you are decididing to rescue others or not to your main consideration must be the Risk vs Benifit then judge for yourself how those scales have tipped and then decide for yourself. all this info must be processed in a split second. for instance in this story the precieved risk of a tox hit may have tipped the scales to were the risk was just to high. now weather in error or lack of experience you missjudged the risk i.e. 32% at 125ft, or that you will instantly black out at 1.6ata O2 it is not an issue...at the time under the stress of the situation you made a split second descision, and like Steve Berman, you will question that descition for ever, it is better than throwing aside the formula of risk vs benifit.

now the part i find humurous about this entire thread is obviously non of you have ever worked as a Dive Master in a resort doing scuba experience dives or guiding tourist divers.. I am betting there is a reason the DM did not intravine. thats probably because it was just another day at the office.
jumping down to 130 or deeper is standard op for DM's and usualy the guest who required rescuing will not even acknowledge the incedent, and will blow you off when the tip jar gets passed around.

i did 5 years as a DM/guide in Hawaii, doing 3 trips a day two dives per trip, 6 to 20 divers per trip. you see everything imaginable, from puking, bolting off in all directions, underwater sex, spitting reg out at 100 and refusing to put it back in, to racing to the surface while fighting you off all the way, helping tourist dive who have never even seen the ocen before, are terified of it, or the worst are totaly macho about diving. puking so much and having so many fish in the way you can not even see the tourist much less make sure he is not drowning..wel i could go on and on...but you get the point.....

it is interesting to see your huge discution based on someone who dropped down a few feet.

now in the tech forum it would be a whole different discution about when to abandone a team mate

 

[WreckWriter]

AquaTec once bubbled...
now the part i find humurous about this entire thread is obviously non of you have ever worked as a Dive Master in a resort doing scuba experience dives or guiding tourist divers.. I am betting there is a reason the DM did not intravine. thats probably because it was just another day at the office.
jumping down to 130 or deeper is standard op for DM's and usualy the guest who required rescuing will not even acknowledge the incedent, and will blow you off when the tip jar gets passed around.

Wrong. 1 year DM, Andros Bahamas, 10 years instructor/DM/dive boat captain Key Largo.

In the discussed situation the reason the DM did not intervene is that there was no DM. In-water DMs in Key Largo are extremely rare. You don't get one unless you pay for one, usually 50 bucks.

Key Largo is US, not Caribbean.

The part about the day at the office and lack of acknowledgement is 100% accurate.

Tom

 

[raxafarian]

AquaTec once bubbled...
now the part i find humurous about this entire thread is obviously non of you have ever worked as a Dive Master in a resort doing scuba experience dives or guiding tourist divers..

why is this obvious??? I know at least one person that's been posting in this thread was a charter captain for 10 years or so.



It's a personal decision. You have to make it. You have to live with it. I feel that I would try and do just about anything to help my buddy. Where you draw the line between trying to help and not putting yourself into an unacceptable level of danger would be an individual decision based upon your level of training and your own morals.

 

[nitroxbabe]

I see this as a purely practical decision rather than a moral one.

It's seeing the odds and making an educated decision.

Or one could make an emotional decision and end up in trouble oneself.

Yep, it's all your choice.

 

[DiverBuoy]

AquaTec once bubbled...
when you are decididing to rescue others or not to your main consideration must be the Risk vs Benifit then judge for yourself how those scales have tipped and then decide for yourself. all this info must be processed in a split second.

There are a lot more factors than this, and each situation is so varied you can't sum it up this succinctly.

Take "split second" for example ... rarely does any situation call for this. All the stories I've ever heard (maybe a thousand) had more than a split second involved. It would be VERY VERY rare.

The key is:

STOP ... THINK ... ACT

The "think" part comes from assessing the situation, drawing on experience, common sense, training, logic, and preparation.

The brain can process over 600 words in minute. Many studies done indicate while we are actually speaking we are thinking what we are about to say and reviewing what we've already said at the same time - and most people can hear a second conversation (not entirely every word - but key thoughts) all at the same time they are doing this.

I defer to your extensive experience AquaTec. I'm sure in the 20,000 stories you've heard and experienced in decades of diving you've heard maybe a dozen split second decision stories - that turned out well. But have you ever noticed when a survivor tells the excruciating details about that "moment in time" - they can go on and on about the detail - it's like time stood still - they could write a novel about that one moment.

Simply no human can be sure of how something will turn out before it happens the rule should always be STOP ... THINK ... and then ACT

Fact is some people are inherently selfless people - these individuals rarely weigh benefit vs risk ... they are instead drawing on instinct AND learned behavior over many years. But most people are inherently selfish ... me first. These individuals may ask themselves if I save this guy what reward is in it for me ... if I don't save him what are the reprecussions. Self preservation is instinctive.

I am of the school of thought that this latter behavior is undesirable and can be supressed through training and experience.

Conclusion: Rescue is almost always risky. It's the nature of being connected to a victim. So the premise of a simple weigh-in of risk vs. benefit is faulty. And by the way sometimes the only reward (or benefit) is to preserve the organs of the donor to save the life of another.

 

[SM Diver]

Walter once bubbled...

Scott, I won't render assistance at 125 ft on EAN 32 because I won't be breathing EAN 32 when the hard bottom is 125 ft. OTOH, I will come after any buddy at any time if there's a chance I can help.

There is nothing wrong with that logic. However, not all diving involves knowing exactly where you're going that day. Marine conditions can change, knocking you off your plan.

I think a dangerous buddy is one who believes everything PADI has told them is gospel. If you want to believe that there is some magical threshold at 1.6 PPO, and that you're going to spit the reg and die and soon as you cross it, then fine. Maybe being ultra conservative is the way to go. PADI even says there has been rare cases of someone taking an 02 hit just over 1.6.

For me, I want a buddy who would lay it on the line. No, not go into a suicide situation, but yes, would take a risk. Why, becuase I know I would take a hell of a risk for someone. If you're not willing to do that and have some guts, then maybe you're best suited for collecting shark teeth on 20ft beach dives. (Not you, Walter, I'm just making a general comment)

And, Tom, I've done CPR on over 500 people in my life. Everything from non-breathing toddlers who have drowned on up to elderly people. Maybe there is a common thread. If you've been around enough tragedy, you tend to want to do whatever you can to avoid it.

I'm checking out of this thread. Think I've made enough enemies for this week! Hope everyone has a good weekend.

 

[Walter]

Scott,

"I think a dangerous buddy is one who believes everything PADI has told them is gospel."

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely you jest! PADI is not, IMHO, an authority on much of anything.

I'd use EAN 28 on the 130' dive in the middle grounds. I know PADI doesn't teach best mix, but like I said above............

"Marine conditions can change, knocking you off your plan."

Which is why I often dive air.

Scott, I lost count of my in water rescues years ago. I've never yet encountered a diver in trouble I didn't successfully go after. I can not imagine many instances in which I wouldn't try to make the rescue.

AquaTec,

"obviously non of you have ever worked as a Dive Master in a resort doing scuba experience dives or guiding tourist divers.."

Only 6 years in the Keys. Obviously, everything isn't as obvious as you thought. As Tom mentioned, things are different in different locations. In the Keys, the DM does not baby sit the divers. I don't know why that practice started in some areas, but it is a very bad system. It encourages instructors to certify divers who are not ready to be on their own thinking, "the DM will look after them."

 

[O-ring]

STOP ... THINK ... ACT

Someone knows their PADI manuals well!

I think a dangerous buddy is one who believes everything PADI has told them is gospel.

And now tampascott pissed him off...

PADI is not, IMHO, an authority on much of anything.

...and so did Walter

 

[MikeFerrara]

I still say that if inadequately equiped (IMO) novices didn't do 100+ foot dives this would have been a non issue.

I also have a number of rescues and assists to my credit. Almost every time I dive one of the quarries or anywhere there are recreational divers I see someone who looks like they are about to get in real trouble. I watch and sometime follow them a bit. They are always too busy and working too hard to notice I am there. Eventually I go back to minding my own business but I am usually not comfortable doing so. I can't take responsibility for everyone but they sure need to be watched by somebody.

As a result I have all but given up diving anywhere there are recreational divers unless I am working. You won't see me on the SG unless I was on a private boat at a low traffic time. You will never see me on a tourist reef. I won't be on a live aboard unless I have the entire thing chartered to an off the beaten path spot.

In the diving I do a rescue situation could occur but that's not something for this thread.

I'm with walter, put an end to the babby sat dives so divers are forced to learn to dive or stay out of the water.

 

[AquaTec]

That interesting about the DM, we did it to act as a guide more than anything...but yes we were there when something went wrong.

the babysitting part came with the scuba experience people, we would take people who had never been on scuba diving