What is proper training?

[looka]

I have a question for the community and specifically for DevonDiver (if he is around).


I agree with you, you need the proper training for every dive you do. My question is "What is proper training?"


It is a question I have had in my head for a while and it came out again reading this post on Chandelier Cave in Palau:


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/pacific-islands/414622-chandelier-cave-safe-aow-diver.html


So, keeping insurance bull**** out of the thread, what is proper training?


Example:


I've been diving with a qualified wreck instructor during a course (NOT a wreck course). He knows the wrecks inside out and knows me well and my skill level. We did some of the dives relevant to the course on wrecks. We have been occasionally penetrating the wrecks, generally in the light zone. It was just me and two TDI instructors, briefieng was extensive, we all had isolated doubles, long hose, backup lights, lines and cutting devices. We did not use the lines, because the exit was always close and visible. He showed me how bad siltouts can be.


The plan is to go back and do my wreck course with him in the spring. He will complete my training and certify me.


Bottom line:


Am I a wreck diver? NO.
Should I go and dive wrecks on my own? NO.
Are the dives I have done beyond the scope of my training? I don't think so. I received the training i needed for those wreck dives before going in the water. That was effectively the beginning of my wreck course (although admittedly in an informal way).


Why am I saying this?
Because I feel there is a part of the diving community (mostly diving instructors) that is hard-line about training, very dogmatic. It's good, but it's also bad.


Training is important and btw I love training, because I am a geek and love to learn and follow capable leaders. But on the other side I see too many instructors pointing the finger at dive centers:


1 instructor says some dive centers are greedy and take divers on dives their are not qualified for just to make money (and I agree, it's bad)
2 on the other, some instructors push and oversell their (ofter quite expensive) training beyond what is reasonable. YOu ask a question, the answer is "you need to go to an instructor and do the course". Like it's some kind of secret.


Why the hell is there a Basic Nitrox and and Advanced Nitrox course? It's the same crap.
Why is there a deep diver specialty? That is stuff that every OW should be taught, and I don't think it's crazy to take an OW diver with 30 dives to 25m.
While I do understand the importance of training, proper guidance, awareness and such, I do feel that some instructors, being very dogmatic about guielines are actually not doing themselves or the community a favor.


I learned how to clear a mask from my mother (at the age of 5), my father (who has more than 1,000 dives) taught me more than anyone else (he is not an instructor), last month I learned something about wrecks from a great instructor despite not being certified yet. And guess what? I will go back for my course and get my wreck diving certification. I have 5 cards form 2 agencies, but I don;t think it is JUST about that.

In my opinion training is a continuos and fluid process of practice, knowledge and risk assessment. You learn from instructors, from peers, from more experienced divers and you learn by being in the water. This is so much more than a card!


What do you think?

 

[ajduplessis]

I have a question for the community and specifically for DevonDiver (if he is around).


I agree with you, you need the proper training for every dive you do. My question is "What is proper training?"


It is a question I have had in my head for a while and it came out again reading this post on Chandelier Cave in Palau:


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/pacific-islands/414622-chandelier-cave-safe-aow-diver.html


So, keeping insurance bull**** out of the thread, what is proper training?


Example:


I've been diving with a qualified wreck instructor during a course (NOT a wreck course). He knows the wrecks inside out and knows me well and my skill level. We did some of the dives relevant to the course on wrecks. We have been occasionally penetrating the wrecks, generally in the light zone. It was just me and two TDI instructors, briefieng was extensive, we all had isolated doubles, long hose, backup lights, lines and cutting devices. We did not use the lines, because the exit was always close and visible. He showed me how bad siltouts can be.


The plan is to go back and do my wreck course with him in the spring. He will complete my training and certify me.


Bottom line:


Am I a wreck diver? NO.
Should I go and dive wrecks on my own? NO.
Are the dives I have done beyond the scope of my training? I don't think so. I received the training i needed for those wreck dives before going in the water. That was effectively the beginning of my wreck course (although admittedly in an informal way).


Why am I saying this?
Because I feel there is a part of the diving community (mostly diving instructors) that is hard-line about training, very dogmatic. It's good, but it's also bad.


Training is important and btw I love training, because I am a geek and love to learn and follow capable leaders. But on the other side I see too many instructors pointing the finger at dive centers:


1 instructor says some dive centers are greedy and take divers on dives their are not qualified for just to make money (and I agree, it's bad)
2 on the other, some instructors push and oversell their (ofter quite expensive) training beyond what is reasonable. YOu ask a question, the answer is "you need to go to an instructor and do the course". Like it's some kind of secret.


Why the hell is there a Basic Nitrox and and Advanced Nitrox course? It's the same crap.
Why is there a deep diver specialty? That is stuff that every OW should be taught, and I don't think it's crazy to take an OW diver with 30 dives to 25m.
While I do understand the importance of training, proper guidance, awareness and such, I do feel that some instructors, being very dogmatic about guielines are actually not doing themselves or the community a favor.


I learned how to clear a mask from my mother (at the age of 5), my father (who has more than 1,000 dives) taught me more than anyone else (he is not an instructor), last month I learned something about wrecks from a great instructor despite not being certified yet. And guess what? I will go back for my course and get my wreck diving certification. I have 5 cards form 2 agencies, but I don;t think it is JUST about that.

In my opinion training is a continuos and fluid process of practice, knowledge and risk assessment. You learn from instructors, from peers, from more experienced divers and you learn by being in the water. This is so much more than a card!


What do you think?

Firstly a lack of knowledge or understanding of a topic is very dangerous. As a technical diver I would have thought that you would clearly understand the massive difference between a Nitrox (rec dives) and advance nitrox course (mandatory decompression) and not see it as the same crap!!! Proper training would have made that clear to you. It could also be that the student does not understand the information presented.

Are you sure that deep specialty and trimix is not the same crap too???

 

[looka]

Firstly a lack of knowledge or understanding of a topic is very dangerous. As a technical diver I would have thought that you would clearly understand the massive difference between a Nitrox (rec dives) and advance nitrox course (mandatory decompression) and not see it as the same crap!!! Proper training would have made that clear to you. It could also be that the student does not understand the information presented.

Are you sure that deep specialty and trimix is not the same crap too???

I took Basic Nitrox with PADI, Advanced Nitrox with TDI. If you follow both courses in depth, they overlap 90%, at least for what concerns Nitrox and oxygen-rich mixes theory.
Of course, being in the water with a TDI instructor, diving with stage tanks and all that has been VERY useful, it's been the best course I have ever taken. My point is that it could have been combined into one. I learned the theory from basic nitrox (with little or no practical skills), I was unhappy with the course, then I took Advanced Nitrox with TDI. The theory was EXACTLY the same, only this time I have been in the water with someone capable. Again, the books are interchangeable, what made the difference was in the water.
Most of what I learned during the advance nitrox course (not all, but 80% at least) was stuff that prepares you for Deco procedures and Wrecks. My humble opinion is that Basic Nitrox and Advanced Nitrox should be one course.

This is to say, despite all the courses I am taking lately (and i am also enjoying for the most part), I see a lot of value in being in the water with someone experienced (in this case my instructor), but I also see an increasing levels of BS that get sold with the progressive certification process, like buying this or that card will make you a better diver. Certifications are not a substitute for time in the water, and you need to learn your skills, but it does not matter how you learn them or who teaches you.

Of course, instructors need to make a living, I understand that too.

---------- Post added November 20th, 2012 at 03:47 PM ----------

Are you sure that deep specialty and trimix is not the same crap too???

No I am not sure, I have taken neither. Maybe next year I'll let you know what i think ;-)

 

[Red Dirt]

I think this same thinking applies to the advanced open water cert. I'm a novice, so maybe I don't understand completely. But, from where I'm sitting, AOW is a cash grab. It let's you experience one dive each of give different specialties. Big deal. What would actually help me is taking the deep specialty, and the nav specialty. But, of course, those aren't available unless you've already taken AOW.

I had a similar experience as you in my recent PADI Nitrox course.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[SangP]

When I did my nitrox and later advance nitrox there was a huge difference. 40% vs 80%, singles vs doubles, mandatory decompress vs none.

I don't see how one can compress both courses into one, the risks of 80% O2 toxicity is too high for newer divers.

 

[looka]

When I did my nitrox and later advance nitrox there was a huge difference. 40% vs 80%, singles vs doubles, mandatory decompress vs none.

I don't see how one can compress both courses into one, the risks of 80% O2 toxicity is too high for newer divers.

We used 50% in the course, no decompression. Most of the course was about gas planning, doubles and carrying/managing a stage tank.
I see how somebody would want to do Basic Nitrox to use EAN in single-tank easy dives.
I don't see how you need to have basic nitrox to do advanced nitrox. Advanced nitrox covers ALL basic nitrox and more.

As you said, oxygen-rich mixes are dangerous for the novice diver. What makes the difference is awareness, experience and attitude. I am not sure how splitting the course in two levels would help.

 

[tye1138]

Hold the phone guys, this thread isn't about a nitrox speciality course.

I understand where looka is coming from completely. The industry has a tendency to promote courses which might not be very important, but do provide extra income to the LDS and instructor.

I think the key with specialities is to be guided through a new experience with someone who knows what they're doing and is capable of saving you if there are some issues. That person doesn't need to be an instructor, you don't have to sign up for a wreck class to dive wrecks. Before I was an instructor I did many wreck dives in the warm waters of Florida, including some crazy kool penetrations... ohh that word can be misused... LOL

But yea, experience is WAY more important then a certification card. I'd rather look at someone's dive log and see what they've done and then go on a quick dive with them to verify those skills, then just rely on their cards.

 

[ajduplessis]

finger trouble

---------- Post added November 20th, 2012 at 12:47 PM ----------

I don't see how you need to have basic nitrox to do advanced nitrox. Advanced nitrox covers ALL basic nitrox and more.

So why do OW, everything is covered in a cave or trimix course?

 

[looka]

So why do OW, everything is covered in a cave or trimix course?

A trimix course does not teach you the basics of scuba, they are prerequisites. If you are not an experienced diver, you cannot follow theory or do those dives.
Advanced Nitrox teaches everything you need to know about nitrox, from scratch. Advanced nitrox completely overlaps Basic nitrox.

You know what I am talking about, let's be real, please.

 

[ajduplessis]

A trimix course does not teach you the basics of scuba, they are prerequisites.

Neither does Adv Nitrox!!

The point is that you need to take small steps at a time!!! Crawl, walk, jog, run, sprint. OW/AOW, Nitrox, Deep, Deco, Trimix

Scuba diving have teeth, be careful they do bite!!!