BTW, that isn't a PADI phrase. Hal Watts claims to have coined the phrase. The earliest reference I've seen was in a Hal Watts written text book. I don't remember the date of the book and I don't have it handy though.
When do you use a Divemaster (11/9/03)
- Thread starter rjens
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BTW, that isn't a PADI phrase. Hal Watts claims to have coined the phrase. The earliest reference I've seen was in a Hal Watts written text book. I don't remember the date of the book and I don't have it handy though.
Sorry it's not that I disagree but you make it sound like you're going to the moon.
May I ask which DIRF slide said that you shouldn't make intelegent use of a local pro? The reason I ask is that there are at least two DIR facilities that I know of in Mexico who spend most of their time guiding (divemastering) dives in the areas caves as well as ocean sites. Wouldn't you think that per this "holistic" approach they would require divers to research the cave and go it alone?
I just read a diver report by a diver I know who's GUE cave 2 and wrote about being guided (divemastered) on some of those dives. You don't think he made it all the way through cave 2 and missed a critical part of the "holistic" approach that you picked up in DIRF do you?
BTW, one of our very own Scubaboard DIR divers who was a student of the above mentioned GUE trained cave diver (and PADI instructor) just anounced (with pride) that she has completed her DM training. You don't suppose she missed the same critical part of the "holistic" approach do you?
SeaJay:That's simply not true.
Decades ago, before the DM was even thought of, there were divers... Beginning divers and advanced divers.
Prior to my certification two years ago, *I* was a diver. I dove for years without knowing or caring what a DM was.
Still couldn't care less. And the implication that I somehow need some other person to make my decisions for me is positively amazing to me.
I am entertained that y'all have been able to find a use for this creature.
Well, like I said, "I don't mean to be rude, but..." Looks like you focused on the "rude" instead of the "but."
I attempted to draw an analogy between a DM and my high school driving instructor. I am a big boy now and don't need either to go and do what I've been taught (and licensed) to do on my own.
Let me guess... You're a DM?
It all boils down to this: I don't want to be "hawked" during my dive. I don't need someone telling me what to do or what not to do, and the only person "in charge" of MY dive is going to be ME. I don't want someone else to plan my dive for me, I don't want someone else telling me when and how to end the dive, and I don't want someone else in-between those two points telling me where to go, what to do, or how to do it.
And I certainly don't need to explain myself at every step along the way if he "lets" me do all of my own planning and diving.
Sorry if that offends you. If, to my face, you told me that you were offended about the fact that I didn't need your services as a DM, I probably wouldn't be so polite about it... I don't know why I am being so polite about it online. To your face, I'd tell you, "Tough. Suck it up. If you want to dive with me, then you're going to need to ask me politely. Then, if I feel like you might make a good addition to my team, we'll do some simple stuff together so that I can find out whether or not you're good enough for my team. If you are, then we'll consider taking you along, but let's get something clear: You'll be the lackey. Until you prove yourself to us, we're going to be leery of placing our lives in your hands. That's all there is to it."
The last thing I need is some kid who thinks he's Aquaman, fondling my gear before my dive, forgetting to plan at all, who tells me to dive my computer and be back on the boat at 500 psi.
I might feel differently if, even ONCE, I'd seen some sort of benefit in a DM.
Could it be he was just triggered by the rhetoric? The "I'm a tough-guy" subtext somehow seems louder than the content.
espantoon
Contributor
SeaJay:That's simply not true.
Decades ago, before the DM was even thought of, there were divers... Beginning divers and advanced divers.
Prior to my certification two years ago, *I* was a diver. I dove for years without knowing or caring what a DM was.
Still couldn't care less. And the implication that I somehow need some other person to make my decisions for me is positively amazing to me.
I am entertained that y'all have been able to find a use for this creature.
Well, like I said, "I don't mean to be rude, but..." Looks like you focused on the "rude" instead of the "but."
I attempted to draw an analogy between a DM and my high school driving instructor. I am a big boy now and don't need either to go and do what I've been taught (and licensed) to do on my own.
Let me guess... You're a DM?
It all boils down to this: I don't want to be "hawked" during my dive. I don't need someone telling me what to do or what not to do, and the only person "in charge" of MY dive is going to be ME. I don't want someone else to plan my dive for me, I don't want someone else telling me when and how to end the dive, and I don't want someone else in-between those two points telling me where to go, what to do, or how to do it.
And I certainly don't need to explain myself at every step along the way if he "lets" me do all of my own planning and diving.
Sorry if that offends you. If, to my face, you told me that you were offended about the fact that I didn't need your services as a DM, I probably wouldn't be so polite about it... I don't know why I am being so polite about it online. To your face, I'd tell you, "Tough. Suck it up. If you want to dive with me, then you're going to need to ask me politely. Then, if I feel like you might make a good addition to my team, we'll do some simple stuff together so that I can find out whether or not you're good enough for my team. If you are, then we'll consider taking you along, but let's get something clear: You'll be the lackey. Until you prove yourself to us, we're going to be leery of placing our lives in your hands. That's all there is to it."
The last thing I need is some kid who thinks he's Aquaman, fondling my gear before my dive, forgetting to plan at all, who tells me to dive my computer and be back on the boat at 500 psi.
I might feel differently if, even ONCE, I'd seen some sort of benefit in a DM.
sounds like someone else thinks he's Aquaman (HAHAHA)
Xanthro
Guest
Edit, Why do two year old threads sometimes just pop back to life?
Blah, ignore the below.
Idiotic use of the definintion, since NOTHING absolutely NOTHING in the World would be considered safe, and thus the word would have no meaning.
You are never ever free from danger. What you are doing is twisting the use of the word safe in order to make a point, and it's a weak point.
Diving can be safer than driving your car, because you can control more of the potential points of danger. For example, on a public road you can't keep drunks from interferring with your driving. The best you can do is minimize the risk of encountering a drunk driver.
All safety is a matter of reducing the risk, whether diving, driving or any other activity.
It doesn't matter if you got your feathers in a ruffle because someone doesn't want to dive with a DM. Fact of the matter is most of them suck. So what. Does that mean you suck? Who knows. It's very easy to become a DM and does not guarentee any real proficiency. There are great DMs as well, but I won't dive with someone because he or she is a DM.
If there is any difficulty involved in the dive, I have to know the person and his/her skill level.
Blah, ignore the below.
CincyBengalsFan:
Idiotic use of the definintion, since NOTHING absolutely NOTHING in the World would be considered safe, and thus the word would have no meaning.
You are never ever free from danger. What you are doing is twisting the use of the word safe in order to make a point, and it's a weak point.
Diving can be safer than driving your car, because you can control more of the potential points of danger. For example, on a public road you can't keep drunks from interferring with your driving. The best you can do is minimize the risk of encountering a drunk driver.
All safety is a matter of reducing the risk, whether diving, driving or any other activity.
It doesn't matter if you got your feathers in a ruffle because someone doesn't want to dive with a DM. Fact of the matter is most of them suck. So what. Does that mean you suck? Who knows. It's very easy to become a DM and does not guarentee any real proficiency. There are great DMs as well, but I won't dive with someone because he or she is a DM.
If there is any difficulty involved in the dive, I have to know the person and his/her skill level.
Curt Bowen
Contributor
I use a dive master to sit and watch the boat until we return 
cdiver2
Contributor
We are talking about at least two different class's of divers here. For some divers part of the love of diving is the planing of the dive, I would go so far as to say it brings as much pleasure as the dive its self to them.
I do understand where SJ is coming from, if you can get/and have the time to research and get the knowledge of a dive site so much the better to be self sufficient and not depend on someone else, then you don't need a DM.
Then you have a diver that travels a lot, may be traveling long distance from his usual haunts, not familiar with the dive sites at all and doing as many as twenty different dive sites in a week. Then you would be wise to use a DM in a couple of different ways, depending on your experience level and the difficulty of the dive.
Example I was planing my own dives before DM's were invented so doing a drift dive in Coz all I would need is a outline of the dive site then I could do the rest. On the other hand Blue corner Palau, I have read a lot about this dive and I think I would have a safer more enjoyable dive with some one that knows the site very well..
There are still places in the world were you are not going to get the information you want for dive sites for free the only people that do know them are the DM's. West New Britain not only do they not know what GUE-DIR means they have never heard of it and do not speak English, no tide tables the only people that can help you are the DM's.
Some DM's do go overboard and run a dive like a military patrol "single line behind me" this type I try to avoid like the plague.
Yes the thread is a couple of years old, but then we have a few hundred new members to the board.
I do understand where SJ is coming from, if you can get/and have the time to research and get the knowledge of a dive site so much the better to be self sufficient and not depend on someone else, then you don't need a DM.
Then you have a diver that travels a lot, may be traveling long distance from his usual haunts, not familiar with the dive sites at all and doing as many as twenty different dive sites in a week. Then you would be wise to use a DM in a couple of different ways, depending on your experience level and the difficulty of the dive.
Example I was planing my own dives before DM's were invented so doing a drift dive in Coz all I would need is a outline of the dive site then I could do the rest. On the other hand Blue corner Palau, I have read a lot about this dive and I think I would have a safer more enjoyable dive with some one that knows the site very well..
There are still places in the world were you are not going to get the information you want for dive sites for free the only people that do know them are the DM's. West New Britain not only do they not know what GUE-DIR means they have never heard of it and do not speak English, no tide tables the only people that can help you are the DM's.
Some DM's do go overboard and run a dive like a military patrol "single line behind me" this type I try to avoid like the plague.
Yes the thread is a couple of years old, but then we have a few hundred new members to the board.
I might as well give my .02 worth.
I never use a Divemaster(except as an extra pair of eyes and hands when teaching), except once on a trip to Vanuatu and we had no choice.
In my day to day diving I have no use for a divemaster (Except as an assistant) and havn't had since the day I was Open Water certified. As SeaJay pointed out I was trained and certified to plan and dive my own dives (with a buddy of course).
However if I was going to dive a site I had no knowledge of, and there was something in particular I really wanted to see I would ask directions from a divemaster, or anyone familiar with the site, to ascertain where I might find this particular thing... If the DM's were going to be in the water I might ask if I could tag along until we find it then maybe wave goodbye.
Other than that I would just go looking... after all thats part of the fun.
I never use a Divemaster(except as an extra pair of eyes and hands when teaching), except once on a trip to Vanuatu and we had no choice.
In my day to day diving I have no use for a divemaster (Except as an assistant) and havn't had since the day I was Open Water certified. As SeaJay pointed out I was trained and certified to plan and dive my own dives (with a buddy of course).
However if I was going to dive a site I had no knowledge of, and there was something in particular I really wanted to see I would ask directions from a divemaster, or anyone familiar with the site, to ascertain where I might find this particular thing... If the DM's were going to be in the water I might ask if I could tag along until we find it then maybe wave goodbye.
Other than that I would just go looking... after all thats part of the fun.
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