Why don't "club trip divers" use buddy teams?

[KeithG]

On our recent Bonaire trip we witnessed the dive behaviour of several different "scuba club vacation trip" groups. It seemed chaotic and very lax...reminded me of "trust me" dives.The most obvious red flag was a total breakdown of the dive buddy system. The group dived as a group. Mostly a random cluster. The dive OP was very clear that the buddy system was to be employed, but left it up to the divers to arrange buddy teams.

On the boat dives it was very clear that once we hit the water none of the club trip divers had a buddy. I expected to easily be able to identify groups of two's. Nope. They were spread out randomly over several hundred feet. No buddys, just a cluster with lots of singles around the extreme edges.

I am curious to learn why these types of divers can not maintain something as simple as the buddy team concept.

It reminded me of my impression of Cozumel dives described here on SB where everyone buddys with the DM. I noted that each group seemed to have a very strong (mine's WAY bigger) "alpha diver". Maybe the alpha diver was the DM substitute?

Any ideas why these people tend to group dive and not buddy team dive?

 

[NAM001]

This is not unusual. Quite often once you submerge you get your better buddy proximity. also quite often you will have a group of divers in the water and buddy's submerge together or at least vent the wings together and they drop in pairs. Also quite often the buddy assignment on the boat is just a formality and no one actually expects buddy system to be followed. (liability issue). I have seen no consistant behavior in this respect. Some things that affect this is whether the dive op is a taxi or not. Local regulations control this. If a taxi you are on your own in the water. This is for me the best reason to have solo skills. As dependency goes I dive solo. (You cant depend on a buddy in most cases) Per assignment I dive buddy. As you have possibly seen on boats buddy's change in the middle of the dive as gas levels deplete and low air divers re buddy to return to the boat while the others stay down to max the dive time for the dollar.

 

[KeithG]

This is not unusual. Quite often once you submerge you get your better buddy proximity. also quite often you will have a group of divers in the water and buddy's submerge together or at least vent the wings together and they drop in pairs. Also quite often the buddy assignment on the boat is just a formality and no one actually expects buddy system to be followed. (liability issue). I have seen no consistant behavior in this respect. Some things that affect this is whether the dive op is a taxi or not. Local regulations control this. If a taxi you are on your own in the water. This is for me the best reason to have solo skills. As dependency goes I dive solo. (You cant depend on a buddy in most cases) Per assignment I dive buddy. As you have possibly seen on boats buddy's change in the middle of the dive as gas levels deplete and low air divers re buddy to return to the boat while the others stay down to max the dive time for the dollar.

Buddys? What buddys? I don't see no stinkin' buddys.

I agree it is not unusual. I have seen it many times. My question is why do divers with no solo training or appropriate equipment think it is okay to dive without a clearly designated buddy?

Once submerged there were no buddys, just a bunch of same ocean divers. There were no buddy switching due to gas as the whole group descended and ascended together (more or less...)

Is there something magical about diving as a group that means you do not need a buddy?

 

[NAM001]

Buddys? What buddys? I don't see no stinkin' buddys.

I agree it is not unusual. I have seen it many times. My question is why do divers with no solo training or appropriate equipment think it is okay to dive without a clearly designated buddy?

Once submerged there were no buddys, just a bunch of same ocean divers. There were no buddy switching due to gas as the whole group descended and ascended together (more or less...)

Is there something magical about diving as a group that means you do not need a buddy?

I would say no to you question. I think it has a lot more to say about the way rules are treated as administrative only and not for practice. Much like the airline talk and the seat cusion for water landing's. You have to listen to it,,, but you give it no real attention because Denver to OKC will not do a water landing. Driving 70 mph is only for the other guy with a big rig and not the farrari you drive. My wife is still in that exact phase of diving. We have always dove in shallow waters. In her mind,, if yo are diving 30 ft buddys are not really a life necessity cause yo can blow and go to the surface if you need to. So much may be just over confidence and not accepting you are in an environment that you are no in is not so forgiving.

I find the same attitude at work. doors are blocked except when safety inspections are being done. UPS's put in equipment so potions don't loose power when power is removed and locked out. Heads will always get turned so long as it is beneficial to final product at the right levels of supervision/management. Im in a delivery business and so long as deliveries are on time no one cares what safety is skipped till something goes wrong and you can bet there is a paper somewhere that puts the blame on you. You know , very much like diving waivers. Do what you want cause we are covered.

 

[Diver0001]

On our recent Bonaire trip we witnessed the dive behaviour of several different "scuba club vacation trip" groups. It seemed chaotic and very lax...reminded me of "trust me" dives.The most obvious red flag was a total breakdown of the dive buddy system. The group dived as a group. Mostly a random cluster. The dive OP was very clear that the buddy system was to be employed, but left it up to the divers to arrange buddy teams.

On the boat dives it was very clear that once we hit the water none of the club trip divers had a buddy. I expected to easily be able to identify groups of two's. Nope. They were spread out randomly over several hundred feet. No buddys, just a cluster with lots of singles around the extreme edges.

I am curious to learn why these types of divers can not maintain something as simple as the buddy team concept.

It reminded me of my impression of Cozumel dives described here on SB where everyone buddys with the DM. I noted that each group seemed to have a very strong (mine's WAY bigger) "alpha diver". Maybe the alpha diver was the DM substitute?

Any ideas why these people tend to group dive and not buddy team dive?

I think it depends upon the club.

At the shop where I work we do what we call "fun dives" once or twice a week. These are organized dives for anyone who wants to come, much like what you are describing, but focused on the needs of local divers and ex-students.... namely the need to network with potential buddies.

The way we do it, we have a strict adherence to the buddy system. There may be several DM's in the water to assist inexperienced divers and/or to navigate around the site for people who are still not entirely confident in doing it themselves, but all teams are "buddy teams" and even if a DM is present we dive 2-by-2 and every buddy team plans their own dive within the given parameters.

This is pretty typical of how dive shops in the Netherlands do this. We are not really special in that way. Moreover, the the Netherlands has their own version of CMAS (called NOB) and they are perhaps even more strict about the buddy system, literally requiring divers with basic OW training to dive with a more experienced buddy and to employ, in many cases, as buddy line.

I've also seen BSAC clubs diving together and their procedures seem very similar to the NOB, albeit more hierarchical (British society is more hierarchical then Dutch society) with more "strutting" by the more experienced divers and lower self esteem among the less experienced divers. Granted my experience with BSAC is limited but I did feel sorry for their newbies from what I saw. In my opinion they might have been better off learning the ropes by diving in a "horde" behind a DM. Of course, that's a judgement and I should make clear that I do have a fairly large allergy for needless hierarchies and putting people into a "class".

So, yeah, if you see a "club" and they come across as very chaotic then it probably says something about that club, but I wouldn't be too quick to generalize the conclusion.

R..

 

[redacted]

On our recent Bonaire trip we witnessed the dive behaviour of several different "scuba club vacation trip" groups. It seemed chaotic and very lax...reminded me of "trust me" dives.The most obvious red flag was a total breakdown of the dive buddy system. The group dived as a group. Mostly a random cluster. The dive OP was very clear that the buddy system was to be employed, but left it up to the divers to arrange buddy teams.
?

What dive op was this?

 

[george_austin]

On our recent Bonaire trip we witnessed the dive behaviour of several different "scuba club vacation trip" groups. It seemed chaotic and very lax...reminded me of "trust me" dives.The most obvious red flag was a total breakdown of the dive buddy system. The group dived as a group. Mostly a random cluster. The dive OP was very clear that the buddy system was to be employed, but left it up to the divers to arrange buddy teams.

On the boat dives it was very clear that once we hit the water none of the club trip divers had a buddy. I expected to easily be able to identify groups of two's. Nope. They were spread out randomly over several hundred feet. No buddys, just a cluster with lots of singles around the extreme edges.

I am curious to learn why these types of divers can not maintain something as simple as the buddy team concept.

It reminded me of my impression of Cozumel dives described here on SB where everyone buddys with the DM. I noted that each group seemed to have a very strong (mine's WAY bigger) "alpha diver". Maybe the alpha diver was the DM substitute?

Any ideas why these people tend to group dive and not buddy team dive?

Curious why it matters to you what other people are doing. They paid their money and should be allowed by the scuba police to behave in a manner that suits them.

Most "alpha divers" are only "alpha divers" in their own minds but even that should give you plenty of laughs over dinner and cocktails later.

 

[ReefHound]

In my observations, many people join clubs and go on club trips because they do not have a regular buddy they know and trust. Not everyone as sometimes couples will join a club but I'd bet these couple remain together on dives. For the rest, they view all the other club members as the same. While Sally may agree to buddy with Pam on the boat, the two may not know each other or trust each other any more than Anna, Ellen, Mary, and Susan who are also on the boat. So once under water, the best and most reliable "buddy" is the person closest to you. Each one of them are there individually and looking to enjoy their individual experience and it makes no difference who they buddy with. You will likely see them scattered randomly throughout the dive.

But also on the boat is John and Jane, who have been buddied hundreds of times on previous trips, some with groups and most just the two of them. They know each other's capabilities and limits intimately. They are enjoying this shared experience and it means much more if they experience the dive together rather than with strangers. You will likely see them remain buddied throughout the dive.

I just think groups have more individual members like Sally and Pam than close couples like John and Jane.

 

[Rred]

"I am curious to learn why these types of divers can not maintain something as simple as the buddy team concept."

CAN NOT? Perhaps you are mistaken, and they simply CHOSE NOT to use the buddy system. A known and trusted buddy is a good thing, or can be a good thing. An unknown "some other guy from the club" diver, maybe not.

As for not having solo dive training...that's something certain dive organizations have pitched recently. But even in the 80's it was found that divers died in pairs, a buddy gets in trouble, pulls in their buddy, both die. Divers die in pairs, so maybe the buddy system isn't all it is cracked up to be?

I know that my training didn't "include" solo diving, but the emphasis was simply that YOU have to be self-reliant and YOU have to deal with everything that can happen. Your buddy? Nice luxury, but we were trained to take care of our selves--and there's nothing in any newfangled "solo" "self-reliant" diving cert that expands on that.

Either you do know how to take care of yourself, or you don't. It is nice to have an extra pair of hands and eyes, sure. Now find your buddy, at night, forty feet down with a mud bottom that just got disturbed around a wreck. Buddy? What buddy? You diving with a buddy line tied to your wrist? Sorry, but those organizations need to get honest and admit their basic certifications are just "junior" certs, and that until you are a competent solo "advanced" open water diver--you haven't really been certified yet. The problem is the agencies doing the teaching--not the students.

 

[drrich2]

My question is why do divers with no solo training or appropriate equipment think it is okay to dive without a clearly designated buddy?

Because it often is, in that large numbers of people doing this in benign conditions (e.g.: warm water, high viz., minimal current, modest depths, often over hard bottom (e.g.: Bonaire's hillside-like sloping reef)) come out alright having had fun the overwhelming majority of the time.

Doesn't mean nobody ever dies doing it.

Have you ever drove while sleepy? Or done much of anything else that's considerably more dangerous than a hypothetical optimal situation, yet you'll very probably be alright?

Any ideas why these people tend to group dive and not buddy team dive?

I think some people view the main point of buddy diving having a redundant air source nearby. What qualifies as 'nearby' is a matter of varied option. If several other people are pretty close at hand, sticking glued to one seems less important.

Here's another thing...'proper' buddy diving as sometimes described on this forum can take work and be a hassle. I believe it draws on aptitudes and attitudes that vary between divers. Even if you found 2 divers with the same vision for how it should operate and its goals (good luck with that) randomly paired on a given boat, maybe one's good at situational awareness and the other's an introvert who tunes out from his surroundings intermittently. Maybe one's good at intuitively reading people, and the other unintuitive and only familiar with a few hand signals.

In summary, I think for what they want to do, they don't perceive a substantial need, they're usually right, and in that small minority of cases where something really goes wrong, maybe we read about a death in the accidents/mishaps section, but that's not common enough to be a pressing enough threat to change behavior.

Not saying it's right or wrong; it is what it is.

Richard.