Wing lift - the X factor

[Gombessa]

It seems to me that a common thread that pops up in the numerous "how much lift should I have" questions is that the exposure suit is always a relative unknown. How many new divers have actually measured how much weight it takes to sink their suit? I've never done it myself, I eventually backed into the right value by adjusting my weighting until I was neutral at my safety stop.

I've also never purchased a wetsuit before, so I'm totally assuming this is the case, but why don't manufacturers provide the approximate buoyancy of the suit? It doesn't really matter if it's in fresh or salt water, or if there's a range to account for manufacturing and neoprene batch variations, or a warning about how the number may change over time as the suit gets older. But for each size of suit, it seems like it would be very helpful to know how much weight it takes to sink it. At least it would provide a solid ballpark for divers to be able to work out their weighting and lift requirements. And it's not exactly difficult for a manufacturer to do.

Are there any downsides to to providing this information?

 

[The Kraken]

Enough to support your rig at the surface with a full tank and without you in it.

I'm not going to get into the ditch or not ditch argument with respect to intergrated weights.

the K

 

[Gombessa]

Enough to support your rig at the surface with a full tank and without you in it.

I'm not going to get into the ditch or not ditch argument with respect to intergrated weights.

the K

Hey K, this response has me completely baffled...

Maybe I didn't pose the question clearly enough?

 

[The Kraken]

You can put your suit in a mesh bag, put it in a pool and attach weights to it until it sinks.

Keep in mind that at about the 15' depth it'll compress and start losing buoyancy.

If you're wearing heavy neoprene, say a 7 mil farmer john/jacket, the loss of buoyancy is quite pronounced.

But from what I was taught, and what I've experienced, wing lift is more of a factor of supporting the rig at the surface.

But the cave divers may jump in here with a whole different perspective.

I am no authority or expert on the subject matter.

the K

 

[WavyGravy]

I'm not sure why manfacturers don't provide this. When I was researching which wing to get I called my wetsuit manufacturer and they didn't know the boyancy! I ended up tieing a weightbelt to it and throwing it in a pool.

 

[Gombessa]

I just think that wetsuit manufacturers are in an ideal position to provide this info, and it would be of great safety value for customers to be able to ballpark their weighting/lift requirements when they buy a new suit.

 

[Van Isle]

I'll argue that the suit manufacturers don't offer this info because it is too variable across the sizes and manufacturing process. If they offered a value for the buoyancy, based on X-characteristics, they would be beholden to maintain that across the QA process.

Besides, it's way too variable once the suit is donned, and will further depend over time with respect to how and where the neoprene gets worn down, etc. It seems like it would be useless data to me, other than the already-obvious fact that more neoprene is buoyant than less neoprene.

Nothing is better than a proper weight check.

VI

 

[Gombessa]

I'll argue that the suit manufacturers don't offer this info because it is too variable across the sizes and manufacturing process. If they offered a value for the buoyancy, based on X-characteristics, they would be beholden to maintain that across the QA process.

Yep, that's why I said:

But for each size of suit, it seems like it would be very helpful to know how much weight it takes to sink it.

The fact is, they offer dimensions for sizing for each size of suit, and are somewhat beholden to maintain those, else they need to change the listing of dimensions. Why not the same for buoyancy? It doesn't have to be precise, just like dimensions they can offer a typical range. But IMO knowing that a Small 7mm suit is roughly 20-24lb whereas an XXL is 34-38 would be beneficial.

Nothing is better than a proper weight check.

Of course. This wouldn't be a replacement for a proper weight check, but a useful guide to get people started in the right place. For instance, I have no idea what the buoyancy of XXL 7-8-9 one-piece with attached hood is, or a XXS 7mm farmer john. IMO, having the manufacturer provide a ballpark figure would allow me to make an initial selection that was better informed given my existing lift capacity, and hopefully let the in-water weighting test jump straight to fine-tuning.

 

[Van Isle]

I don't think suit manuf. have anything at all to gain by offering such info and it would cost money to do so. Further I think the legal liability inherent in questions of "proper weighting" on the information as given by a manuf. would be too much for a wetsuit manuf. to take on. If I was a lawyer for the company in question I would advise against it.

This is all, however, conjecture, and it might best to direct your Q's to the manufacturers in question.

Cheers!

VI

(My real struggle is in wondering WHY you want this information at all? How would this help you buy one suit and not another? Is this information critical in deciding how you want to spend your dollars? Will it trump fit, warmth, construction detail, support, reputation? How will it add to the process?)

 

[Gombessa]

If I was a lawyer for the company in question I would advise against it.

Well, I AM a lawyer and I'm still asking the question

(My real struggle is in wondering WHY you want this information at all)?

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful response, I appreciate the discussion. As to why I want the information provided, it's right there in the title and my first post. For me, this has nothing to do with purchasing decisions for the suit, and more with wing lift and weighting. We have a host of people here eager to help out new divers seeking bp/w or BCs, and the question always comes up, "how buoyant is your exposure protection?" It's one that people can rarely answer with any level of confidence. Oftentimes we fall back on rules of thumb like "well, a 7mm suit is typically 22-26lb buoyant."

But I was talking to someone who is a big guy, and we ultimately found out that his suit is nearly twice that buoyant at the surface. It would have been helpful for us to be able to look at the label and establish a general baseline prior to jumping into the water for a proper weight check. It would also be useful to the numerous people who rent suits (maybe one day a M 9mm one-piece, and the next day a L farmer john) and want to see the general delta between different makes/models, even if they have to take into account the age/wear of the neorprene. I just think it would be useful to have, but it's good to know that others think otherwise.