Promise syphon

[Daedalus]

I agree, but my current understanding is that diving anywhere except Emerald Sinks without having special permit is trespassing. I disagree with the restrictions on Emerald Sink, but I was not involved in working to get it open. If the cave community demonstrates their willingness to abide by the rules and responsibly access the site we have a stronger case for accessing more sites and perhaps loosening the requirements at existing ones. Trespassing only hurts our credibility and should not be encouraged.

I heard a different story about why access was cut off to the cave diving public.

 

[Springwise]

Lets just say we are in agreement then. Wakulla park property is off limits. So, no Emerald, Cheryl, etc. But again, I am refering to NATIONAL FOREST property. If you consult a map, you'll see that there is a distinct segment of National Forest surrounded by what used to be St Joe property. I was there the day it was "closed" by being posted by hunters. What really closed was the access to that island of National Forest. To my knowledge it has always been "open" and remains so. If there are no prohibitions against hiking through Wakulla park's recent purchase (and I have been told onsite by park personel that there was not) then I'm not actually encouraging anyone to tresspass.
Dude, no one owns all the Tallahassee caves, so they can't all be "closed" as if some omnipotent WKPP hand came down from on high and saved the ignorant masses from certain death diving the likes of Emerald, Promise, Gopher or any of the host of sites on public and private land. Yes, certain property was purchased by the state. Yes that property is currently fenced and gated (and posted). Yes, one small subset of cave divers has used political machinations to pretty much keep everyone else out for years. But there are lots of holes in the ground, some on National Forest , some on private land, and they are not all closed.
How many more years should we wait for your predicted relaxation of a draconian and exclusive policy. These are our dive sites. Peacock III doesn't mean noone but Abe Davis recipients dives Peacock. The presence of sidemount only tunnels in a cave don't mean ONLY sidemount divers can dive the cave at all. So why close sites like Emerald? Because you don't think the next guy is skilled enough or capable enough or smart enough to use proper judgement as to where to say "when"? This should offend people and I can't believe more people aren't offended by it. What stops an intro diver from exceeding sixths of double on any main line? Cave police, I guess. Or your solution, just keep everyone out----problem solved.:no

 

[Daedalus]

I think we both agree on the ultimate goal but disagree on the means to achieve it, I will leave it at that.

 

[karstdvr]

We can't blame the "elite" class of cave diver for what has happened in the Wakulla region,but we need to blame ourselves for losing access in this region back in the 90's. A combination of poor land owner relations and poor public PR in the context of accidents etc. A change in attitude is occuring with some hard work by some people,and it has resulted in getting some caves open. Where the misconception occurs is that these caves were set up with exclusive access because they require trimix,Abe Davis etc,but this was at the request of the land owner;you do what the owner wants or too bad. One of the big barriers we have to overcome is our credibility. Land owners have been told that recreational cave divers are reckless and dangerous,and that they shouldn't be allowed access in this area. We are presently in the phase of showing we can do this safely and follow the rules,and once we establish our credibility then we can get a relaxation of rules if possible and access to different sites. It is slow work and difficult to reverse over 10 years of misinformation,but a lot of positive foundations have been established. What kind of things can cause damage to the ongoing work in this region? All it takes is a cave diver trespassing on property,violating the rules,or worse yet becoming a fatality because these are advanced level caves due to depth,to unravel the work that doesn't benefit a single group,but the community as a whole. If someone must see these caves then do it the legal way-join an elite group,get a permit for a project to access these properties,or get on board the effort to gain recreational access.

 

[karstdvr]

I agree, but my current understanding is that diving anywhere except Emerald Sinks without having special permit is trespassing. I disagree with the restrictions on Emerald Sink, but I was not involved in working to get it open. If the cave community demonstrates their willingness to abide by the rules and responsibly access the site we have a stronger case for accessing more sites and perhaps loosening the requirements at existing ones. Trespassing only hurts our credibility and should not be encouraged.

I heard a different story about why access was cut off to the cave diving public.

I have to agree with your comments.

 

[Springwise]

I respect Karst's comments, and I feel he speaks with prudence and maturity. Insofar as the whole issue of trespassing is a red herring however, I think the point is being missed. Of coarse I'm not advocating trespassing. No one seems to be interested in the root issue of the issue; is National Forest property off limits to diving? I may be completely wrong, but I have never believed this to be the case.
Also, Go Between is about 60' deep, with a submerged arch and another "land bridge" (<55'@25'fw) leading to Promise, which is about 95' to the cave entrace. Upstream from Go Between is shallow, 65' maybe if I recall. Downstream is admittedly deep, but lets not assume everyone who would dive the spring/sink will bottom the cave. It would be an interesting and frankly a beautiful dive even staying out of either cave and doing three cavern dives; upstream cavern,/land bridge cavern/ downstream cavern, all together. Hell, I wish I was there now!

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

It(Go Between) really does sound good

Not that I'm about to walk into what could be a grey area on access. I know for a fact there are certain groups working to gain access to sites in the area, with progress ongoing. I'd rather not give any fodder to anyone trying to keep access from the public diving force.

I hope to one day be able to dive this site. Thanks for the slight report and description.

 

[karstdvr]

Of coarse I'm not advocating trespassing. No one seems to be interested in the root issue of the issue; is National Forest property off limits to diving? I may be completely wrong, but I have never believed this to be the case.
!

I understand that this property is not open for recreational access and requires a permit. I've worked to gain access to several properties and I would totally support this effort.

 

[Springwise]

It is certainly open to the numerous hippies, skinny dipping coeds and locals and has been, even during the closure of the surrounding access. I visited the ranger station and was told that yes indeed the Forest property was, as always, open to use, but the access via the surrounding property was controlled by a hunt club. In the years since then the land has been aquired by the park. So? There are no national forest provisions that I'm aware of that prohibit diving, and the park doesn't prohibit hiking so.........


I hear there are over 400 dive sites in Wakulla county. Does anyone really believe there are only two that should be open to use? Less than one half of one percent? C'mon, this has been about politics and elitism since day one. I say if there are no laws against it, it is legal. If there are those who want to wait for parking with benches and changing stations where a cave nazi goes around checking cards to dive these caves I say, "see you there in another ten years". That is, if I'm still young enough to dive .... If you want adventure, I say load up the kid's wagon with your dubs and drag it the twenty minutes to the spots, nice and legal like. Then dive. They didn't make all the nice steps and plant all the mondograss , bamboo, and roses to make the place unappealing. Its a beautiful place to visit. So, push a naked hippie out of your way and dive!

 

[karstdvr]

, I am refering to NATIONAL FOREST property. If you consult a map, you'll see that there is a distinct segment of National Forest surrounded by what used to be St Joe property.

From the Apalachicola National Forest web site,"To protect you and the sinks, a number of uses are prohibited at Leon Sinks: swimming, diving, motor vehicles (except in the parking area), hunting, mountain biking, horseback riding, and ATV and motorcycle riding. "