He seems to have no respect for land owner relations.
Promise syphon
- Thread starter Springwise
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SuPrBuGmAn
Contributor
If what he says is correct, he asked a ranger if he was doing anything wrong at the particular sites he was talking about - without being stopped...
How much do you know about the area?
I personally am not going to dive until I know for sure(and knowing isn't going to be based on one person's account on the internet).
The point of my previous reply is that you didn't add anything to the conversation.
The cave CCR cert had no impact on anything at Indian because they are mutually exclusive. Is there word on CCR at Indian,don't know but I do hear rumblings,you are a guide why don't you talk to Jason.
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Springwise
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What Jason B and apparently others are missing is that this post was about a specific site which IS NOT on private property. Had he read the string he would know that landowner relations have NOTHING to do with the issue. Nor do ongoing efforts to gain access to other sites. Rather than present a cogent argument , he speaks in baby talk and profanity. Why?
I mention the WKPP, not because I want to inflame the sensabilities of the less articulate among us, but to illustate my point, which stands unrefuted.
Let me also say that I mean in no way to impune the WKPP, or their divers or DIR. These guys are top guns in my book and deserve the credit due them. I am always excited to hear about their discoveries. My point was, just because there are top guns who will push the limits doesn't preclude the possibility, I would say probability, that there are many others who are slightly less skilled and capable who nonetheless deserve to be able to excersize their skills to the extent they ARE comfortable AND trained to. So don't require overcertification for sites and expect people to accept it.
I mention the WKPP, not because I want to inflame the sensabilities of the less articulate among us, but to illustate my point, which stands unrefuted.
Let me also say that I mean in no way to impune the WKPP, or their divers or DIR. These guys are top guns in my book and deserve the credit due them. I am always excited to hear about their discoveries. My point was, just because there are top guns who will push the limits doesn't preclude the possibility, I would say probability, that there are many others who are slightly less skilled and capable who nonetheless deserve to be able to excersize their skills to the extent they ARE comfortable AND trained to. So don't require overcertification for sites and expect people to accept it.
scubafool
Contributor
Springwise, not to yank your chain, but have you got together with a group of cave divers and worked with landowners to try to open sites up for cave diving?
You bring up some good points, but until you have made serious and repeated efforts to bring about positive changes, do you have room to complain about the changes that others have managed to effect? You seem upset with the results that others have been able to obtain, so what are you doing to get BETTER results? If in fact you have done so, or are currently doing so, it would serve your arguments well to bring that out. Otherwise, it at least appears that you are yelling at the players, but are not willing to play the game yourself.
I hope that you don't interpret this post as an attack on you, it is not meant that way at all. You seem to have some passion for this issue, and I would hope that you would put that passion to work in a manner that will do the most possible good.
Regards
You bring up some good points, but until you have made serious and repeated efforts to bring about positive changes, do you have room to complain about the changes that others have managed to effect? You seem upset with the results that others have been able to obtain, so what are you doing to get BETTER results? If in fact you have done so, or are currently doing so, it would serve your arguments well to bring that out. Otherwise, it at least appears that you are yelling at the players, but are not willing to play the game yourself.
I hope that you don't interpret this post as an attack on you, it is not meant that way at all. You seem to have some passion for this issue, and I would hope that you would put that passion to work in a manner that will do the most possible good.
Regards
PerroneFord
Contributor
There are folks currently working to open access to over a dozen sites in the Wakulla area that will not require Abe Davis, Trimix (for most), or other things. I have been to some of the sites and been in one. The hope is to have gold line installed and access ready by the spring.
Hopefully, people can manage to wait that long and not undermine current efforts. These efforts include liasoning between land owners, and local cave divers. The CDS and NACD are also being made aware of ongoing efforts.
Hopefully, people can manage to wait that long and not undermine current efforts. These efforts include liasoning between land owners, and local cave divers. The CDS and NACD are also being made aware of ongoing efforts.
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Springwise
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The issue of land owner relations and the issue of the status of an unclosed sink on National Forest land are two different issues. Negotiations with Wakulla State park should not be affected by whatever happens vis a vis Federal property.
I respect private proerty, probably as much or more than most of us, and nowhere in this string have I advocated trespass of any kind, period.
I want to say that I appreciate the current efforts of all parties to gain access to closed sites. Obviously, somewhat open seems better than totally closed.
My point was, look who's negotiating and compare that to the standards that get agreed to. Its easy to agree to require all manner of certs, awards, etc if you are already in possesion of them, or if you stand to gain by the requirement. This doesn't make the negotiators bad people or anything, just human.
All I was saying is, remember that the sport includes maybe 10% badasses and 90% for-the-enjoyment-of-the-sport divers, and let access reflect the fact that not every diver will push the limits of every site.
But if the sites are not closed, then why not dive them?
I respect private proerty, probably as much or more than most of us, and nowhere in this string have I advocated trespass of any kind, period.
I want to say that I appreciate the current efforts of all parties to gain access to closed sites. Obviously, somewhat open seems better than totally closed.
My point was, look who's negotiating and compare that to the standards that get agreed to. Its easy to agree to require all manner of certs, awards, etc if you are already in possesion of them, or if you stand to gain by the requirement. This doesn't make the negotiators bad people or anything, just human.
All I was saying is, remember that the sport includes maybe 10% badasses and 90% for-the-enjoyment-of-the-sport divers, and let access reflect the fact that not every diver will push the limits of every site.
But if the sites are not closed, then why not dive them?
PerroneFord
Contributor
I am an intro cave diver without a trimix cert. It is my hope to be able to dive locally, and to that end I am doing what I can to assist the ongoing efforts in this area. A number of the sites currently being worked on will accomodate cavern and intro divers. Some sites will best be utilized by full cave divers, and some will be the domain of trimix divers, and sometimes sidemount divers.
There is a lot of diving in the area, and some of the people working on access are also somewhat frustrated with the idea of how limited the diving in the area is. When I am at liberty to say more I will. Again, I only ask that divers hoping to dive in this area show a bit more patience until the spring.
There is a lot of diving in the area, and some of the people working on access are also somewhat frustrated with the idea of how limited the diving in the area is. When I am at liberty to say more I will. Again, I only ask that divers hoping to dive in this area show a bit more patience until the spring.
With the exception of two posts this has got to be one of the better discussed threads on cave access I've seen.
I would seem to me you could get more accomplished by going at it with a group of like minded people as opposed to going it alone.
Very few people remember the hundreds of safe, successful cave dives at a site but they all remember the one or two accidents/incidents.
I would seem to me you could get more accomplished by going at it with a group of like minded people as opposed to going it alone.
Very few people remember the hundreds of safe, successful cave dives at a site but they all remember the one or two accidents/incidents.
Very good point,and this is used in the education process of the public because there are records of safe cave diving awards and the number of hours they represent. There has been a metamorphosis of atitudes in a couple counties in Florida over the last 2 years that have been anti-cave diving in the past,and one of the ways was for them to see that cave diving is a safe sport.
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