Sharing air & continuing dive???

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This is not a safe move for swimming along during your dive. This is taught so that you may safely make it to the surface.

Safety should be the key. So why is it safe to do for an ascent but not safe otherwise? I can see not teaching such techniques to OW students and I can see not just doing this with any buddy (or other diver) you might end up with. It is best if both divers are fully competent and comfortable with it. Some divers are uncomfortable with the idea of removing their reg from their mouth (yet they carry and octo/inflator - but that is another discussion). They would probably be a poor recipient for such a technique. Like so many things in diving, it is best if such a thing is planned, discussed, and practiced.
 
I will not teach poor dive planning just because people make bad decisions. I have personal and professional standards which I will not break because people want to justify doing the wrong thing.
This would not be breaking any professional standards and you've yet to explain the rationale for any personal standards that it might run afoul of.
I do. the standard is that this is an emergency maneuver for reasons.
a. Both divers need their own independent air source that is attached to them. You are using a tank that is attached to another diver. This is not a safe move for swimming along during your dive. This is taught so that you may safely make it to the surface. It is Not a swimming technique for a buddy pair.
Says who? It is a swimming technique if you have to move out from under a kelp bed or out of a wreck or out of a cave ... you damned well better have practiced it until it is second nature.
b. You are using your buddy's air as yours. You buddy's great sac rate is a benefit for you in case you have an equipment failure, or you are careless and use up all of your air. It is Not your extra tank.
As long as adequate reserves are maintained, what's the problem?
I teach my students to be thinking divers. They will not entertain this idea, as a result. They understand proper dive planning and why this is a skill to be practiced, not an alternate way to extend their bottom time.
It seems to me that a paucity of thought went into that statement.
At the end of the day, you will do what you will do. But I will not endorse bad planning.
What is bad about it? The only issues are being able to comfortably switch regulators and swim while using your buddy's auxillary, both rather elementary skills that I expect of an entry level student. I don't see what your issues are.
 
I will not endorse bad planning.

BAD planning?

In order to do what we do, we need to do considerably more planning than the usual "back on the boat with 500 psi." We need to know both of our SAC rates, so we can calculate a realistic rock bottom reserve. (Note that, if one diver has a horrendous SAC rate, the rock bottom reserve is going to be pretty high, so the air-sharing time may very well be pretty minimal.) We need to know the cubic foot capacity of the tank and the working pressure, to calculate how many psi that rock bottom reserve is going to be. We have to plan a time in the dive to do the air-sharing, and a signal to initiate it that makes it clear that there's no emergency.

This is not bad planning. This is good planning.

Putting Peter in the water with a bigger tank is maybe an even better solution, but frequently not possible in resort diving.

I can see possible objections to this procedure: It's inappropriate if people don't have the ability to calculate minimum gas reserves. It's inappropriate if people don't have buoyancy control good enough to stay together and share gas comfortably. I can see the fear that a newer diver, sharing gas, might get a reg pulled out of her mouth and, rather than recover her own, panic and bolt. But all that says to me is that people should learn gas management, and buoyancy control, and practice skills like regulator recovery and air-sharing MORE often, not less.
 
It's inappropriate for most divers, because most divers can't control their buoyancy (a requirement for staying attached to someone with a 7ft hose) and they just can't think outside the box.

For those who can do this properly -- by all means, go for it. I find it amusing that many times when I see people argue against something like this, they're the same people who don't have the ability to do it...(I wonder why they are arguing against it ...?)
 
I will not teach poor dive planning just because people make bad decisions. I have personal and professional standards which I will not break because people want to justify doing the wrong thing.


I do. the standard is that this is an emergency maneuver for reasons.
a. Both divers need their own independent air source that is attached to them. You are using a tank that is attached to another diver. This is not a safe move for swimming along during your dive. This is taught so that you may safely make it to the surface. It is Not a swimming technique for a buddy pair.
b. You are using your buddy's air as yours. You buddy's great sac rate is a benefit for you in case you have an equipment failure, or you are careless and use up all of your air. It is Not your extra tank.

I teach my students to be thinking divers. They will not entertain this idea, as a result. They understand proper dive planning and why this is a skill to be practiced, not an alternate way to extend their bottom time.

At the end of the day, you will do what you will do. But I will not endorse bad planning.

Hmmm ... so you teach your students to be thinking divers by teaching them not to think about alternatives?

That sounds like a contradiction to me. Diving's just too situational to ever "not entertain" when a skill like air sharing might be useful.

At the end of the day it has value in certain circumstances, and drawbacks in others. If you want to train thinking divers, then teach them the skill and let them determine when it's appropriate ... or not ... to use it. "Just say no" isn't ever a good approach to training anyone how to be a thinking diver ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Thalassamania:
ZenDiver.3D:
I will not teach poor dive planning just because people make bad decisions. I have personal and professional standards which I will not break because people want to justify doing the wrong thing.

This would not be breaking any professional standards and you've yet to explain the rationale for any personal standards that it might run afoul of.


I have to agree. Professional (training agency) standards don't apply to non-training situations.

I guess that maybe local laws could apply? I'm unaware of any region that actually dictates by law to not continue a dive whilst sharing air, though.

Maybe charter companies codes of practice may stipulate a minimum reserve - but in which case, treating gas as a team resource is helping you comply.

One could argue that it may be poor role model behaviour to train divers to finish a dive in a low on gas situation, yet opt to share air during a dive to extend it. But, it seems to me that most of the proponents for this aren't actually talking about low/out of gas circumstances. They are talking about always maintain a safe reserve by both divers, that will allow both divers to ascend at any point from either gas supply.

This is a lot different than being OOG and contuning to dive - so I don't think the poor role model argument really holds any water.
 
I will not teach poor dive planning just because people make bad decisions. I have personal and professional standards which I will not break because people want to justify doing the wrong thing.


I do. the standard is that this is an emergency maneuver for reasons.
a. Both divers need their own independent air source that is attached to them. You are using a tank that is attached to another diver. This is not a safe move for swimming along during your dive. This is taught so that you may safely make it to the surface. It is Not a swimming technique for a buddy pair.
b. You are using your buddy's air as yours. You buddy's great sac rate is a benefit for you in case you have an equipment failure, or you are careless and use up all of your air. It is Not your extra tank.

I teach my students to be thinking divers. They will not entertain this idea, as a result. They understand proper dive planning and why this is a skill to be practiced, not an alternate way to extend their bottom time.

At the end of the day, you will do what you will do. But I will not endorse bad planning.
You are basically saying that gas sharing in a non emergency situaion is unsafe becasue as a diver is swimming and breathing from a tank that is not his or her own. So? If the reg falls out, the diver puts his or her own back in. That is a basic OW skill and no catastrophe is involved. More importantly with a long hose, swimming is very normal with little potential for the reg to get pulled free anyway.

Similarly you are suggesting that that if diver A is good on gas and has lots left, it is just a great big bonus of a reserve. How much do you need? If 500 psi is enough to get each diver to the surface, safely, 1000 psi will get both divers there. So as long as the dive gets thumbed when the reserve needed in either tank is enough to get both divers safely to the surface, there is always complete redundancy. If the receving diver has a failure, they note the bubbles, continu sharing gas and ascend. if the donating diver has a failure, they just switch to the other divers regs and ascend.

Read what Jim said again....

Last summer I was the dive leader for a group from our local dive shop diving the Cayman Agressor for a week.

The captain did an excellent briefing and explained the depth and time profiles. As part of my planning I told three of the newer divers that I was overseeing to be sure and monitor air supplies and let me know when they hit 1,000 psi.

I explained that I dove with a 7' hose and showed them how it was deployed and that the four of us would be diving as a team. Two of the divers were doing fine on their air and 20 minutes into the dive the third diver indicated 1,000 psi. At this point I had about 2300 psi.

We had finished the deep part of the dive and were in about 40 feet of water. I gave this diver my long hose and we dove together for nearly 30 minutes. When I hit 1000 pounds I put him back on his tank and we all began a slow ascent and did our safety stop. We all surfaced with sufficent air. Back on board we debriefed and talked about how we could improve air consumption.

This same situation occurred on the next two days as well with the same outcome. By day three the diver had mastered the basic skills so that he was able to reduce his air usage and finish the dives with the entire group.

This was never an emergency. The diver had enough air at any time to slowly ascend, do a safety stop and surface. We had talked about what we were going to do and why...

In the real world that is how it works with everyone benefitting from increased bottom time, increased comfort and reduced anxiety from the confidence of knowing that sharing gas is really a lot simpler than the catastrophizing attitudes of many instructors would have students believe and that it is something that is within their skill set if the need ever arises for real. I prefer that to semi panicked divers facing a real life air share with only the limited experience of an OW class and a near built in belief and desire that bolting for the surface is an option and or what you do as soon as you mug your buddy for his or her gas.

I have had intentional air sharing to extend bottom time happen in technical diving (both deco procedures and Full Cave) classes where a hoover classmate was directed to go simulated OOA and share gas from me or another class member to ensure that the objectives of the dive could be met while ensuring everyone in the three member team maintained an adequate reserve for the entire dive.

----

To use a flight training example, pilots often practice engine out procedures, simulate forced landings, auto rotations, partial panel approaches, etc, etc, etc, to ensure that when the real deal arrives the responses are automatic and the pilot has the confidence that comes from he or she doing it countless times before. Why would we deny divers the same opportunity to learn and practice skills in the course of a normal dive?
 
It's inappropriate for most divers, because most divers can't control their buoyancy (a requirement for staying attached to someone with a 7ft hose) and they just can't think outside the box.

I have a less "PC" reason for not sharing air to "even out the dive". Eventually the "20 minute dive" people will get tired of short dives and fix their consumption problem or get bigger tanks. Sharing air just sweeps the real problem under the rug.

Terry
 
Terry -- Lynne and I share when we dive AL 80's in the tropics so we both get max benefit of the total gas supply. When diving in the tropics, her SAC tends to be in the low 0.3's and mine in the low 0.4 range. Sucking 15 ft3 of her gas gives us good long dives.

This just isn't for 20 minute wonders!
 
You all may beat this around all you like. If you want more air, carry more. Don't plan to use your buddy's air. This is not good as your dive plan.

Dance around it all you like, but you try to defend this in court, when it goes south and the family blames you for teaching this option or endorsing it as a divemaster. I wish you luck.
 

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