Any proof that dive computers improve safety?

[Thalassamania]

Okay, it's a boring Sunday, so I'll give this one a shot.

Many liveaboards require a dive computer (we do not) for many reasons, but none of them are to make you safer. Scuba diving is not a safe sport, and a computer does not make it so.

With that said, I want to know your real profile. Since many are incompetent to use tables (or don't care to), I want to know how badly or how far you're in deco. That way, when I evacuate you to a chamber, I have an answer for the flight surgeon besides "Duuhhhh, I don't know". Whether you know your profile or not is irrelavant to me. I want to know what it is. And since if you're not responsible enough to wear a computer, you're probably not responsible enough to re-zero the little pointer on your rented depth gauge or bring a watch that can be used underwater.

Second, I want you to have the best experience possible. If you choose to dive tables, you will be bottom-time and depth limited on your second dive of the trip. When your buddies are hanging out with the manta at the end of the dive and you have to return to the boat (with a buddy) instead of hanging out with a manta, you're going to be pissed at me. And if you choose to hang out with the manta and violate tables, I'm going to sit you out for 24 hours, or until you're a clean diver again. That's going to piss you off too, then you will bitch and whine about what an ******* I am, and how you're never coming back, and you hope the boat sinks, and generally causing a sour attitude on the boat. I don't need that, and neither do the other passengers on the boat.

Third, I think training agencies suck. The last decent training agency was NASDS, and they couldn't compete with the 2 day course that other training agencies promote. The day some training agency tries to regulate the diving I allow on the Spree will be the day I give it back to the bank.

Frank

With all due respect, having that sort of an approach as a blanket rule seems to me to be a bit draconian, I never turn over authority for my dive profiles to anyone else, except perhaps for a Diving Medical Officer and even then he or she damned well better be doing so in a basically consultative framework.

 

[Wookie]

With all due respect, having that sort of an approach as a blanket rule seems to me to be a bit draconian, I never turn over authority for my dive profiles to anyone else, except perhaps for a Diving Medical Officer and even then he or she damned well better be doing so in a basically consultative framework.

Perhaps you missed the part about about we don't have a dive computer rule. And perhaps as a DSO you have a higher authority you must bow to than the average recreational diver. As a liveaboard operator, It would be stupid and short sighted of me to take "authority" for your profiles. I'll bet when you are approving dives, you require your scientific divers to wear a computer so that the dive record you send to AAUS has some basis in fact, not whatever the diver said their profile was. I'll also bet that when the DMO "consults" with you, you follow those "recommended outcomes". I've seen DSO's (or UDS's) that are medically unfit to dive according to their DMO. Sucks to be stuck in the office.

 

[H2Andy]

So chamber will give reliable, but small numbers.

they will not be reliable because you are missing a huge chunk of the picture

as i keep trying to explain, "safe diving" and "having to go to the chamber" are not the same thing

 

[Thalassamania]

Perhaps you missed the part about about we don't have a dive computer rule. And perhaps as a DSO you have a higher authority you must bow to than the average recreational diver. As a liveaboard operator, It would be stupid and short sighted of me to take "authority" for your profiles. I'll bet when you are approving dives, you require your scientific divers to wear a computer so that the dive record you send to AAUS has some basis in fact, not whatever the diver said their profile was.

No, they fill out a paper form: time in, time out, max depth, table or model computer used, purpose of dive, project, account to charge for insurance. That's it. If I can't trust their paperwork, could I really trust the behavior?

I'll also bet that when the DMO "consults" with you, you follow those "recommended outcomes". I've seen DSO's (or UDS's) that are medically unfit to dive according to their DMO. Sucks to be stuck in the office.

Yes, I almost always do. I've been in that situation, and yes it does suck ... I missed a great trip from Tromso, to Spitzbergen to St. John's. BTW: a UDS (NOAA term) is quite different from a DSO (AAUS term), NOAA Diving and University Scientific Diving are quite different and distinct, especially when it comes to training and administration.

 

[Papa_Bear]

I will say to anyone who says recreational diving is NOT safe, I wish Sonny Bono would have taken up SCUBA! If you remove tech and cave it is VERY safe! It is one of the safest of recreational activities!

Weather your a table freak or a computer one safety is your responsibility and you can't control Physiology! A friend of mine who retired as a commercial diver after 35 years and 14000 dives took a hit on his second dive vacation to Cozumel on an 80ft dive! So many things in the human physiology can effect DC it is always best guess weather it is tables or computer! A wise man once said "I would rather be lucky than good" and sometimes it is just that simple!

I just know for me it is and always will be a computer and if I feel safer I guess I might be?

 

[tarponchik]

Okay, it's a boring Sunday, so I'll give this one a shot.

Many liveaboards require a dive computer (we do not) for many reasons, but none of them are to make you safer. Scuba diving is not a safe sport, and a computer does not make it so.

With that said, I want to know your real profile. Since many are incompetent to use tables (or don't care to), I want to know how badly or how far you're in deco. That way, when I evacuate you to a chamber, I have an answer for the flight surgeon besides "Duuhhhh, I don't know". Whether you know your profile or not is irrelavant to me. I want to know what it is. And since if you're not responsible enough to wear a computer, you're probably not responsible enough to re-zero the little pointer on your rented depth gauge or bring a watch that can be used underwater.

Second, I want you to have the best experience possible. If you choose to dive tables, you will be bottom-time and depth limited on your second dive of the trip. When your buddies are hanging out with the manta at the end of the dive and you have to return to the boat (with a buddy) instead of hanging out with a manta, you're going to be pissed at me. And if you choose to hang out with the manta and violate tables, I'm going to sit you out for 24 hours, or until you're a clean diver again. That's going to piss you off too, then you will bitch and whine about what an ******* I am, and how you're never coming back, and you hope the boat sinks, and generally causing a sour attitude on the boat. I don't need that, and neither do the other passengers on the boat.

Third, I think training agencies suck. The last decent training agency was NASDS, and they couldn't compete with the 2 day course that other training agencies promote. The day some training agency tries to regulate the diving I allow on the Spree will be the day I give it back to the bank.

Frank

Here is a shot back.
1-st, you make too many assumptions. You seem to assume that everyone wearing a comp knows how to use it and has it in order. Well, I do not think so. On my last trip, for example, there was one guy who just got his comp, so he was RTFM-ing between the dives for the 1st 3 days, till he got it right (or maybe gave up, no idea). Another guy's comp was obviously malfunctioning, or he did not know how to reset it, cause it bipped in the middle of the dive every time, telling him to go up. He ignored it, and so did our DM. So I won't be surprised at all that when your moment of truth comes--that is, you evacuate someone to the chamber--you find that the battery in his comp is dead. Sorry, Frank, but you did not check his battery before the dive, did you? Ooops.

2-nd, you make an assumption that "[if I am] not responsible enough to wear a computer, [I am] probably not responsible enough to re-zero the little pointer on [my] rented depth gauge or bring a watch that can be used underwater." But didn't you just said that a comp does not make scuba diving safer? And if this is so, then what has wearing a comp to do with responsibility? Convenience has nothing to do with responsibility, only safety has. And, BTW, I have my own gear, if you used the word "rented" [gear] here not by chance but as a suggestion that I am some kind of cheap shot or that buying a dive comp would require me to get a 2nd mortgage on my house or something. I had my experience of diving with comps, I do not like comps, and I do not like when someone is twisting my hands.

3-d, since you do not know my profile (you started with this), how will you figure out that I am violating tables?

 

[tarponchik]

Gas is the limiting factor for most divers diving a PDC. NDL's are the limiting factor for most divers diving tables.

Not if they dive on NITROX.

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

Not if they dive on NITROX.

You can probably come up with a million different "not if they" statements, but what is your overall point or question? You seem to just want to argue a random assortment of individual points with people.

I stand by statement, especially the word "most", indicating that there may be exceptions. BTW, using EAN is not one of the exceptions.

 

[Wookie]

Here is a shot back.
1-st, you make too many assumptions. You seem to assume that everyone wearing a comp knows how to use it and has it in order. Well, I do not think so. On my last trip, for example, there was one guy who just got his comp, so he was RTFM-ing between the dives for the 1st 3 days, till he got it right (or maybe gave up, no idea). Another guy's comp was obviously malfunctioning, or he did not know how to reset it, cause it bipped in the middle of the dive every time, telling him to go up. He ignored it, and so did our DM. So I won't be surprised at all that when your moment of truth comes--that is, you evacuate someone to the chamber--you find that the battery in his comp is dead. Sorry, Frank, but you did not check his battery before the dive, did you? Ooops.

2-nd, you make an assumption that "[if I am] not responsible enough to wear a computer, [I am] probably not responsible enough to re-zero the little pointer on [my] rented depth gauge or bring a watch that can be used underwater." But didn't you just said that a comp does not make scuba diving safer? And if this is so, then what has wearing a comp to do with responsibility? Convenience has nothing to do with responsibility, only safety has. And, BTW, I have my own gear, if you used the word "rented" [gear] here not by chance but as a suggestion that I am some kind of cheap shot or that buying a dive comp would require me to get a 2nd mortgage on my house or something. I had my experience of diving with comps, I do not like comps, and I do not like when someone is twisting my hands.

3-d, since you do not know my profile (you started with this), how will you figure out that I am violating tables?

Well, actually, we do check the divers computer before they get in the water. We check that it is on, that it is set to the right nitrox percentage, we check that it doesn't have a low battery, we check it for a number of things at the beginning of a trip so that we feel confident that the diver is knowledgable about their unit. remember, if diver gets bent, it effects the whole boat, not just that diver. Please don't assume I am so stupid as to evacuate a diver with a dead computer battery. I am insulted. If a diver on your trip had a malfunctioning computer that wa ignored by the diver, I expect it. If it was ignored by the DM, shame on that op. Since we don't require computers, I would also quiz you about your knowledge of tables. If you're not gonna dive a computer, you WILL dive tables, or wheel. If you can't figure out either one, I'll re-train you. If you still don't get it, you get to sit on the boat with me until you do.

Second, I use the word "you" not to indicate you "tarponchik", but to indicate the unwashed masses of divers. I certainly mean no insult to you, especially if you know how to dive tables. I'm happy for you. I would hazard a guess that 90% of divers certified in the past 5 years can't dive using tables. Nor do they care to. I would guess that 50% don't understand what the computer beeping means at the 10 foot depth. I would guess that the other 50% are lucky not to get their computers in deco.

Third, I think many liveaboards require computers so that they will know the divers profile, even if the diver doesn't. That's where I started this.

If you chose to dive from the Spree, and you wanted to dive tables, you would prove to me that you understand tables, that you have a proper depth and timekeeping device, and you will plan your dive and will dive your plan every dive. If you can't plan a dive, we will re-train you.

Frank

 

[drdaddy]

You won't either. There is no available data on the number of active divers or the number of dives they do or whether or not they dive with computers.

Terry

I dive all my dives with computers. But most of the dives (Oregon Jetty Dives) that I do year round are the same places (and same time below) that I used to dive using the tables, so I know that it doesn't matter whether I have a computer or not. And actually, I dive all my dives with a computer on each wrist (Oceanic Veo on the right and the backup more conservative Suunto Vytec on the left). Of course I dive this way so that when I do dives outside my norm, I will be very familiar with my equipment.

Also I can dive much more and deeper when I go to exotic places (like Hoodsport, Washington , and the Red Sea/Israel), and know that frequency and length of my dives can be longer with the computers than with the tables.

If I would want to dive "safer", I would dive Enriched Air/Nitrox 32, using the tables ! I'm joking of course, as I always dive within my NDL.