40m without deep specialty?

[DCBC]

...I know some CMAS agencies who required CESA drills from 40m for their *** and **** certifications. Luckily they stopped doing that because those drills really were knife edge dangerous.

I still have all basic divers do a 50' CESA and Advanced from 100'. How else can an instructor prepare a diver properly without getting his students to attempt this?

The CESA is simulated in-that the diver has a functioning regulator in the mouth. They can breathe at any time and it's not a pass or fail item. It sure gives the diver an up-close and personal appreciation for depth.

I certainly don't think that it's knife edge dangerous. It just takes a little practice. If you think about it, free divers dive to 200'+ what's difficult of only going one way with seven full lungs full of air?

 

[Tigerman]

Free divers will not risk lung expansion as the air they take down is the same they come up with..
Other than that its not really a problem

 

[divebunny13]

The PADI depth "recommendations" of depth are 60ft for Open Water, 100 feet for AOW, and 130 ft if you do the Deep Diver specialty.

Remember that they are recommendations, not requirements.

Always, always dive within your limits and training and dive with people you trust and you should be fine.

We do a dive at my resort that is a no deco dive to 185ft. I do it at least once a week with divers of all experience levels and since it is conducted safely, we all have a great time and a great dive!

 

[DCBC]

We do a dive at my resort that is a no deco dive to 185ft. I do it at least once a week with divers of all experience levels and since it is conducted safely, we all have a great time and a great dive!

I got to know South Bight well while exploring the Blue Holes with George Benjamin in 1972. You work at a great resort DB!

What gas are you using for the 185' dive? What does the profile look like?

 

[divebunny13]

I do work at a fantastic resort.

We use air for the Over The Wall, which is our 185' dive. It's a follow the leader dive and the divers wait at 20ft for the DM. Once we start descending, we have 5 minutes before we have to begin ascending from 185 back to the top of the wall, which is about 70 feet.

At 185ft there is a wide sandy ledge that we have the divers sit on. There are a couple of toys for them to play with while they are narcing and once the time is up, we cruise a gorgeous section of the wall on the way back up. The total dive time is 18 minutes.

Divers have to build up dives with us before they can go over -- 90 ft, 120 or 140ft and then if they have shown that their comfort level, air consumption and susceptibility to narcosis are acceptable for the dive, we will take them -- no matter if they have a "deep" certification or not.

If you click the link in my signature that leads to Youtube, there are a couple of videos of the dive there.

 

[TerryC]

Dare I ask ...

How'd you get to be a DM without learning how to do a deep recreational dive?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It all depends who you train with.
The school in the UK I trained with offered all trainee DM's a package of specialties at a very advantageous price. Deep diver was stressed as a priority, we could then (and only then) assist with the Deep Specialty courses and the deep dive for AOW.
For new Instructors wishing to be a MSDT, a training course was offered by my course director.
The "carrot" was that the cost of this was not much more than the saving made from Padi when registering for teaching Specialities via a CD course rather than self certification.
The "Stick" was that you could not teach the Specialities through the dive center if you had self certified.
Actually these courses were an excellent learning experience. We were far better Instructors as a result.
Obviously the dive school were making some money from us and of course maintaining their teaching standards. But it was money well spent as far as we were concerned.
T

 

[jraitchi]

DCBC-I'm curious, are you a PADI instructor? A CESA from 50' seems awfully sketchy for open water certs if that's what you're referring to with "basic divers"

 

[DCBC]

DCBC-I'm curious, are you a PADI instructor? A CESA from 50' seems awfully sketchy for open water certs if that's what you're referring to with "basic divers"

I was a PADI Instructor (MSDT) for 17 years. At the time, I owned a PADI Training Facility and operated a NAUI Training Centre and a Branch Office for ACUC and CMAS. I was a Course Director with NAUI and an ITE for ACUC, CMAS and IDEA.

PADI would not allow me to register a 5 Star Facility because I offered other training programs (including Commercial Diving). They would also not allow me to be certified at any higher level because I would not allow myself to be branded with the number of the beast.

I felt PADI was much too restrictive on what they would allow in diver training, so I no longer teach through them (emeritus status). PADI's restrictive process continues today, the recent nixing of buddy breathing is but one example. I surpass minimum requirements in all my programs and currently prepare divers to dive safely in North Atlantic waters. My basic program is a minimum of 50 hours.

As far as the CESA is concerned, I believe that it's important for an Instructor to properly prepare the student. CESA is the last option, but an option nevertheless. How can you mention this as a viable option to a student and not train him to successfully accomplish it safely?

I teach a student proper equipment maintenance, how to do a proper pre-dive check on his equipment (including his breathing system), how to share air, buddy breath in various positions and CESA. Attention is on the buddy system, proper buoyancy and rescue/self-rescue.

It's important how to recognize hazards before they occur, so they can be avoided. If a problem presents itself, the diver should have the skill-sets to deal with it in a safe an effective manner. I don't think I'm doing any more than what's necessary, or anything other than what I would expect if someone else was teaching a member of my family.

 

[Antarctic-Adventurer]

I do work at a fantastic resort.

We use air for the Over The Wall, which is our 185' dive. It's a follow the leader dive and the divers wait at 20ft for the DM. Once we start descending, we have 5 minutes before we have to begin ascending from 185 back to the top of the wall, which is about 70 feet.

At 185ft there is a wide sandy ledge that we have the divers sit on. There are a couple of toys for them to play with while they are narcing and once the time is up, we cruise a gorgeous section of the wall on the way back up. The total dive time is 18 minutes.

Divers have to build up dives with us before they can go over -- 90 ft, 120 or 140ft and then if they have shown that their comfort level, air consumption and susceptibility to narcosis are acceptable for the dive, we will take them -- no matter if they have a "deep" certification or not.

If you click the link in my signature that leads to Youtube, there are a couple of videos of the dive there.

Thanks for your post and the link to the OTW dive video. It looks like a great dive.

I am curious to know what your dive profile looks like on this dive. Since the PADI RDP only lists depths upto 140 feet I assume that you use the US Navy Dive Tables to calculate an ND Dive to this depth? According to the US Navy tables a 185ft dive gives you an NDL of 5 minutes. But then you say after 5 minutes at the ledge you come back upto 70 feet. How long do you then spend there? Are you using a computer to keep within your NDL?

Looks like a great dive though. Will have to come and visit if I hit the Bahamas. :cool2:

 

[divebunny13]

Thanks for your post and the link to the OTW dive video. It looks like a great dive.

I am curious to know what your dive profile looks like on this dive. Since the PADI RDP only lists depths upto 140 feet I assume that you use the US Navy Dive Tables to calculate an ND Dive to this depth? According to the US Navy tables a 185ft dive gives you an NDL of 5 minutes. But then you say after 5 minutes at the ledge you come back upto 70 feet. How long do you then spend there? Are you using a computer to keep within your NDL?

Looks like a great dive though. Will have to come and visit if I hit the Bahamas. :cool2:

The dive profile was set with the Navy tables.

The time on ledge depends on how fast you descend. It's at the end of five minutes (with the time started as soon as the descent from 20 ft starts) that we make our ascent. We are usually only on the ledge for about 3 minutes. It's just enough time to grab the divers on video and introduce them to the chickenfish.

I dive an Uwatec Aladdin and it is usually on :1 of ND before we begin our ascent. As long as I keep a decent ascent rate, it never clicks over into deco. If we are little slow getting started, it might click over and give me one minute but once I'm at the top of the wall, it'll either clear or stay at one minute until I hit my safety stop.

When I first came here, I thought they were crazy for the doing the dive since I was straight out of IDC. Then I spent time watching the operation and watching how they run it and saw that they are very careful with everyone and making sure someone "qualifies" to go OTW. The Birch family has been running this dive for 50 (!) years now. It's definitely one of my favorites -- freefalling over the wall and staring out at the abyss that is the Tongue of the Ocean is not an experience to be missed.

You should definitely come check us out!:cool2: