Fundies kicked my a$$

[TSandM]

Maybe they no longer wait for the comet, but there was a recent time when DIR was synonymous with the Halcyon brand and all DIR divers did indeed dress exactly alike.

Bleagh! I have taken four GUE classes, and at no time was I even ENCOURAGED to buy Halcyon gear, far less required to do it. In fact, very little has been made of my gear at all, except to discuss certain functional issues, and why the instructor thought what I had could be improved. EVERY class, including the one taught by someone who is a ScubaPro Rep and DUI rep, has been brand-agnostic.

I have dived with DIR divers in just about every brand of dry suit you can name, and in wetsuits, and in a variety of colors.

I'm sorry, but you are really showing that you have swallowed the internet hype, and know very little about the people or the classes you are disparaging.

 

[vladimir]

If there was a liveaboard or resort that had the approval rating that "Fundies" graduates here report, I would book my trip tomorrow (if I had some vacation time ). It almost certainly delivers what it promises, based on the many reports here by participants. (I don't keep track of this sort of thing, and I'm too lazy to search back posts, but wasn't Crush a little bit of a DIR skeptic?)

Mossman would perhaps counter that it is a self-selected group motivated by a desire to be in "the club," and are thus almost guaranteed to get what they want from the course, because what they really want is entree to "the club," rather than improved skills. There does seem to be an element of that (based solely on Scubaboard reading).

I sometimes find the zeal of the recent converts a little surprising; it's hard for me to imagine something transforming my diving the way the recently Fundified seem to feel theirs has been transformed. But then, I dive in clear warm water with minimal exposure protection, so skills like buoyancy control and situational awareness seem trivial to me. Perhaps the course would be more tempting if I were still diving cold water, or still struggling with those skills, as I undoubtedly once did.

 

[Mossman]

sigh.... there is so much you dont understand about gue/dir, yet you are so sure of what you think you know.

You might be surprised. Wanna quiz me?

I'm sorry, but you are really showing that you have swallowed the internet hype, and know very little about the people or the classes you are disparaging.

You also might be surprised. I helped start some of the internet hype while "discussing" with some of the original DIR-F players.

Mossman would perhaps counter that it is a self-selected group motivated by a desire to be in "the club," and are thus almost guaranteed to get what they want from the course, because what they really want is entree to "the club," rather than improved skills. There does seem to be an element of that (based solely on Scubaboard reading).

I sometimes find the zeal of the recent converts a little surprising; it's hard for me to imagine something transforming my diving the way the recently Fundified seem to feel theirs has been transformed. But then, I dive in clear warm water with minimal exposure protection, so skills like buoyancy control and situational awareness seem trivial to me. Perhaps the course would be more tempting if I were still diving cold water, or still struggling with those skills, as I undoubtedly once did.

At the dawn of GUE, I saw some incredible conversions. It scared me. There are some things I don't mess with. Heroin is one. DIR is another.

 

[DennisH]

To Crush: congratulations on your accomplishment. I hope the debate in this thread in no way diminishes your well-deserved sense of having met a challenge, and again, all credit to you for seeking ongoing training and skill development.

It's funny, the nicest and most generous divers I've had the pleasure to dive with have been GUE and UTD trained. I had a scuba accident when I first started diving and as a result I stopped diving for years. When I finally decided to start again, with great anxiety about diving, some very kind GUE folks dove with me to make sure I gained confidence in a safe way. Nobody ever commented on my gear, or made me feel bad about my equipment or skill level. They encouraged me, helped me -- all without being judgmental. As a result, I am once again a comfortable diver, and I dive fairly often.

I'm sorry that people have had less pleasant experiences with folks in the DIR world. I do often wonder how many of those experiences are either on the internet instead of in person, or coloured by out-of-whack stereotypes of a uniform army of interchangeable divers dressed in ninja black...when all your info comes from the internet, it's time to meet some folks in real life and build relationships, not grudges.

Again, best wishes Crush.

 

[gsk3]

It is too bad someone does not separate the DIR skills standards from the DIR philosophy and offer just the training in the skills. Is there some reason solo divers should not practice the DIR skills standards? Can't you have the DIR level skills when it come to buoyancy and positioning control without having a great buddy attached to your side by some invisible bond (with an extra D-ring if you choose)?

Started a thread to try to separate out which skills are at least partially separable and which are not:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/385439-holistic-system-can-skills-separated.html

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You might be surprised. Wanna quiz me?

Not really ... I've reached a point in life where I just don't have the time or patience to deal with the willfully ignorant.

You also might be surprised. I helped start some of the internet hype while "discussing" with some of the original DIR-F players.

Ah ... I see ... you helped create a few flame wars on the internet regarding a subject you have no real-life experience with.

Wow ... there's a surprise ...

At the dawn of GUE, I saw some incredible conversions. It scared me. There are some things I don't mess with. Heroin is one. DIR is another.

I understand ... internet conversations can be scary sometimes ... but what really matters is what exists out in the real world. My experiences in that world have little in common with your claims ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Gareth]

"the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts"

Of course you can seperate the elements that make up GUE instruction. A diver that has great trim and precise buoyancy control is not going to forget those skills because they don't have a buddy with them. Equally a diver with superb awareness of his environment and paying close attention to the people in the water with him or her is not going to suddenly spontaneously combust just because they have decided to use a gas switching nitrox computer. There is, contrary to popular opinion, no dive police. I know GUE trained divers who use rebreathers. I know commercial divers who say they have benefited from GUE training. I know one guy that spends his life welding pipes at the bottom of the north sea, and would love the idea that someone thinks he has been "converted" or has joined some sort of cult just because he took a recreational diving course to help improve his awareness in the water.

I always tell people they have essentially three choices at the end of fundamentals. They can think "that was interesting and fun" and just walk away from GUE and it's approach to diving. They can cherry pick the bits the like, whether it be the ability to back kick or their improved awareness in the water. Or they can go diving with GUE divers and use the entire system. Those that choose to do the latter invariably get the most of out it. And that's where the whole concept of the holistic system comes into play. It works best when taken as a whole. Everything fits together and works as a system. It was designed that way, and has evolved over time so that the elements are interlinked. And it's not always obvious. An element of the equipment configuration might not seem to important at the fundies level, but could become crucial at the Tech2 or Cave2 level. We teach one system for all diving, at all levels. That invariably means there is compromise in the system, but also huge benefit in the standardisation.

Critically, there is no requirement to do that, it's your choice. So not like a cult at all really.

Even though I should know better, I do despair when I see people talking about cults. GUE take $75 from people for registering on a course. that's it. I don't mention any brand names on the course, and equipment is assessment completely on its adherence to the course standards, and it's quality and appropriateness for the individual to learn and progress with their diving. Every GUE instructor I have ever met or talked to works the same way. who the hell are we to tell people what brand of anything they should choose, after all it's their money.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Gareth, I really like your post. But I'd also like to point out that the three choices really aren't mutually exclusive ... because it depends on the diver and the circumstances of the dive.

I went diving with three of the most GUE-oriented people I know last night ... and being in side-mount I was hardly what you'd call a poster-boy for DIR ... especially since my choice for sidemount is a Nomad. But we reviewed the dive profile and gas plan, established primary buddy teams, did our head-to-toe checks, stayed within everyone's comfort zone with respect to the team behavior, and overall had a great time. The differences in our equipment configuration did not at all affect our ability to dive together, since we had discussed those differences before the dive and were prepared to deal with how they would affect us in the event of any unanticipated circumstances.

Differences in configuration and diving environment do require one to evaluate how to anticipate and deal with potential problems ... and prepare your dive accordingly. But one of the things that a GUE class teaches you is not to be so married to procedure that you neglect to use your brain. When I recently switched to sidemount I anticipated that my DIR-trained friends may have some issues diving with me in it. I have found that not to be the case at all ... for the most part they are attentive when we go over how to dive together, and generally ask very good questions that help clarify how we will function well as a team.

I guess what it boils down to is that the value I see in the DIR training I took isn't so much to say "this is how we do" something ... it's learning how to think in terms of "this is why we do" that thing. As a diver ... at any level ... understanding the why gives you the ability to make better decisions. And having that ability makes it easier to adapt to a variety of circumstances.

In my part of the pond, we don't generally worry about which "club" someone belongs to ... if your friends choose a different way of learning than you do, that's cool ... as long as you can adapt to diving together safely and responsibly that's what really matters ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Gareth]

Gareth, I really like your post. But I'd also like to point out that the three choices really aren't mutually exclusive ... because it depends on the diver and the circumstances of the dive.

This is a very good point, and is at the root of why I don't say I am a DIR diver. I strive to be a DIR diver. Some days I get close, some days I don't. but I'm always a GUE diver

 

[Mossman]

Not really ... I've reached a point in life where I just don't have the time or patience to deal with the willfully ignorant.

There's that flaming again. I guess that means I can flame back?

What I find ignorant is taking an expensive class if you have no use for it. Obviously, from your other post below, you didn't take anything from the class. These are the GUE Fundamentals:

Of particular interest is the promotion of solid fundamental skills for all divers (recreational and technical) as well as their adherence to a common diving standard. This general standard requires the following:
•Divers use the same equipment configuration; this enhances safety and efficiency.
•Divers use the same well-defined set of breathing gases, including Nitrox, Helium and Oxygen; standard mixes eliminate complexity and greatly enhance safety.
•Divers use a team approach during all dives, facilitating fun and safety.
•Divers must have a solid grasp of fundamental diving skills, including refined buoyancy, trim and teamwork; these skills must be developed in concert with the type of dive pursued. Difficult dives require very high levels of skill development.

Why take a class if you're just going to ignore its precepts? As a holistic system, you can't pick and choose. It's all or nothing. If you're not Doing it Right, you're doing it wrong. That's why I don't particularly care for GUE/DIR. I don't do it their way, but I'm still doing it right my way in my opinion and that's good enough for me.