In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

[cvchief]

It appears to me that there is improvement needed when it comes to the safety of divers in Cozumel. I submit as evidence the lost female diver on Santa Rosa last month (March 28?) and the deceased woman on the C-53 dive in November 2011.

Ron,

Correct me if I am wrong, but the most recent incident could have been medical, right? We don't know what happened.

And wasn't the other exactly the same? Unknown cause?

 

[Ron Lee]

Ron,

Correct me if I am wrong, but the most recent incident could have been medical, right? We don't know what happened.

And wasn't the other exactly the same? Unknown cause?

You may be right on the March 28, 2012 event. We do not know. But if policies are adhered to that prevent stress or equipment issues from causing a drowning, that incident may have turned out differently if NOT a medical issue. If a medical issue, and not preventable by even Lloyd Bridges, then the policy that monitors them should have prevented a missing diver situation. Either way, the outcome could have been happy or less sad (no body recovery).

I do not recall if the C-53 death was medical or not. But having an experienced buddy accompany that diver may have made a difference. If my post recollection is correct, you would probably strongly support that last sentence.

I am still thinking of a tag line for my posts like Don has. Something to this effect

PROTECT OUR NOVICE COZUMEL DIVERS - Improved oversight, guidance and training is cheaper than complacency.

Update: I saw this early Dec 2011 post by a person who is reportedly the woman's (C-53 event) stepdaughter"

"Jax - just a point of reference - Suzanne did not have a medical problem. The autopsy showed no cardiac event, stroke, or any type of brain Aneurysm. She also had plenty of air. Unfortunately, we will probably never know exactly what happened."

And it is Mike who waxes eloquently about a competent buddy pair being potentially life-saving.

 

[mstevens]

I guess I am missing the point here. Please explain why that matters

There are several ways.

One is that shooting a bag from depth takes time. During that time the reel must be controlled and the diver's depth must be maintained. It's significantly different doing this from 30 feet than from 9.

Additionally, there's much greater inflation of a bag as it ascends from greater depth. Its rate of ascent accelerates more. The same amount of air used to shoot a bag from 10 feet will seriously overinflate a bag shot from 60 feet.

A further aspect is the ascent part. It's simply not possible to reel in 20 feet of vertical line in a 12-foot pool and still be underwater.

I doubt anyone thinks pool practice isn't useful. It is not, however, the same as open water practice or practice in the rare pool that offers actual diving depths.

 

[Mike]

Just a question - when was the last time a buddy pair died or disappeared in Cozumel?

Show me a diver who disappears while scuba diving and you're showing me someone who was diving with somebody who had piss poor buddy skills. As soon as a buddy pair splits up and they turn into solo divers their risk levels raise exponentially.

LAKE SHASTA, Calif. — A 20-year-old San Francisco Bay Area man has died while scuba diving in Lake Shasta. Shasta County authorities say a dive team recovered the body of Jeremiah Murray of Dublin around 8:20 p.m. Tuesday. Sheriff’s deputies began a search around noon for Murray after friends on a nearby houseboat reported he had failed to return to the surface. Murray was diving alone in the lake.

a 62-year-old male who was diving off the Equinox dive boat with other divers. Witnesses said the victim apparently separated from his buddy in strong currents shortly after 2:00 pm on Friday while exploring the wreck of the Thesis.

A diver is missing and presumed dead after a scuba diving accident off Orcas Island. Authorities told CDNN that Michael Scherner, 40, disappeared on August 12 while scuba diving with a friend. According to the U.S. Coast Guard, the pair started the dive together between Clark and Barnes islands, but Scherner, an experienced former Navy diver, continued diving alone after the buddy diver ascended.

A group of three divers entered the water and shortly got separated, the separated diver was found hours later on the bottom apparently drowned, regulator out of mouth

While onboard “Sovereign of the Seas”, Bob purchased a shore excursion through the cruise line to go scuba diving. When he left the ship that morning for his scuba diving adventure, it was last time I saw him...The dive master, who was also his diving “buddy”, had left him to assist another diver with their equipment.

Two days of searching have failed to find any trace of diver Kevin Winston Bailey, 63, of Blenheim, who disappeared yesterday while surfacing from a dive on the wreck of the coastal trader, Holmglen.Mr Bailey was diving on the wreck with two mates and they were ascending from 60 metres when they stopped on a decompression break at 12 metres. Mr Bailey was an experienced diver but his diving buddies had no idea if he was in trouble before he surfaced or if he just became separated and reached the surface by himself, only to disappear.

BATANGAS, Philippines – A 32-year-old sales manager of Globe Telecom Inc. died while scuba diving in Mabini town Saturday afternoon, police said. Together with her boyfriend and another friend, Cruz went to Koala Dive Site in Barangay Bagalangit. She failed to resurface from the sea. Cruz’s body was retrieved a few meters away from the shoreline around 4:00 p.m. by another diver, identified as Jason Mendoza. Cruz’s boyfriend Lauro Vives, who was her diving buddy, resurfaced from the sea ahead of the victim because he felt dizzy.

 

[Darol]

Blah blah blah blah blah..... How can someone who has been to Cozumel ONE time get on here and say crap like this....?

By way of example only, the following is copied from Scubadu's website:

"Our DiveMasters and Instructors are all PADI Certified, and have many years of experience in Cozumel, they will make your diving experience with SCUBA DU very safe and also lots of fun. Our attention to safety first and personal service is the main reason why SCUBA DU has one of the best safety records in Cozumel, and has been repeatedly recognized as one of the top 10 dive operators in Cozumel and the Caribbean for many years by industry publications like Scuba Diving Magazine, Sport Diver and Undercurrent."

Three uses of "safe" in one paragraph. I looked at a bunch of others and, not surprisingly, they nearly all stress safety in their advertising. I am not singling out Scubadu as being any different from most others. Of course they all stress safety because in the real world people look to the Dive Operation to protect them and assure them of safe dives to th extent they can. Supervision by highly trained staff is almost always assured in the ads. I know we are all ultimately responsible for ourselves. But lets not kid ourselves, dive operations compete by emphasizing the safety of the services they offer - as Scubadu's website above confirms. It is sophistry for the operators to deny their resonsibility and if they understaff to try to compete on price and by understaffing fail to deliver the safety that they promise, they will be liable. If they advertised "we offer services for experienced divers only as we do not assure your safety" that might be different. But they don't. They promise cruise ship newbies and all comers safe dives in an advanced environment. If we do not deliver what we promise to consumers because we want to save money to compete on price, we should expect to be called out for it. Its all about money.​

TomZ said it best: Bottom line: Diving CAN be dangerous. The tools to stay safe are available. Find them. Use them. Think. Prepare. Take nothing for granted. Plan for the worst, enjoy the best.

Well said TomZ

What some people should realize, things you post here could effect someone's livelihood. So please at least know of what you speak.

 

[flots am]

What some people should realize, things you post here could effect someone's livelihood.

An injury or death caused by sending brand new divers out on a drift dive over a deep wall, when many have never seen anything more stressful than a 30' quarry with a rocky bottom, would get your ass sued off in any country with a functioning legal system.

If people are worried about dive op and DM income in Cozumel, maybe the dive ops and DMs should be more careful with new divers and not take them to places they're not actually qualified for.

flots.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am not sure why shooting the bag requires three hands, but it does require practice that is for sure.

The problem with shooting a bag, whether with a reel or a spool, is that it really requires 3 hands to do it easily.

I hope you realize I was joking about the 3 hands, and I appended the word "easily."

I don't know of any in my area that have a class on that, you just go to the LDS and buy the manual, get in some practice and do the dives. But I take advice from you guys, and people when I'm out diving. And luckily my LDS gives me pool time and air for free since I got all my equipment from him and he's 10 mins away from my house which gives me plenty of time to practice :cool2:

It can be hard to find such a class. I first realized what a buoyancy chump I was--even though I was a Peak Performance Buoyancy instructor--when I took Intro to Tech. Becoming a cave diver was another big step. Other people take GUE Fundamentals or other similar classes to reach new levels. You are quite right that traditional recreational scuba does not go there. In our area, the shop with which I work is just now introducing such a class.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

There are several ways.

One is that shooting a bag from depth takes time. During that time the reel must be controlled and the diver's depth must be maintained. It's significantly different doing this from 30 feet than from 9.

Additionally, there's much greater inflation of a bag as it ascends from greater depth. Its rate of ascent accelerates more. The same amount of air used to shoot a bag from 10 feet will seriously overinflate a bag shot from 60 feet.

A further aspect is the ascent part. It's simply not possible to reel in 20 feet of vertical line in a 12-foot pool and still be underwater.

I doubt anyone thinks pool practice isn't useful. It is not, however, the same as open water practice or practice in the rare pool that offers actual diving depths.

No one implied it was, the statement was, isn't deploying an SMB something that can be practiced in a pool so that when you have to deploy it in unusual conditions you're used to it instead of being in panic mood trying to figure out what to do! All the things in you described are things that you should have learned in OW class, no different than than equalizing your mask sometimes isn't necessary at 12 ft, but becomes more evident at 30' and even more at 60', but it's something some people don't think about and wonder why their eyes are swollen and red. Like I said I've never been to Coz, but I do know from experience trying to figure out how to deploy and SMB, control your safety stop in current isn't easy.

Cooler heads always prevail!
Practice makes perfect!

 

[boulderjohn]

One is that shooting a bag from depth takes time. During that time the reel must be controlled and the diver's depth must be maintained. It's significantly different doing this from 30 feet than from 9.

I teach shooting both SMBs and lift bags with both spools and reels. I have shot bags at all kinds of depths from 6 feet to depths far below the maximum depths of the certification level in your profile. I have no idea why the mechanics are significantly different between 30 feet and 9 feet. When I was practicing to make sure I looked good prior to being tested on this for my Tech Instructor performance test I practiced it repeatedly in a pool that had a maximum depth of 8 feet. When I did it at depth (considerably below 30 feet) for my performance test, that practice served me well.

Additionally, there's much greater inflation of a bag as it ascends from greater depth. Its rate of ascent accelerates more. The same amount of air used to shoot a bag from 10 feet will seriously overinflate a bag shot from 60 feet.

This isn't rocket science. It is common sense not to worry about filling it completely during practice sessions. Go to Youtube and look up any of the 50 or so video demonstrations of shooting a bag in a pool and see how many put more than a breath or two in the SMB. When I have been in Cozumel, I have never see a DM completely fill a bag--it floats limply on the surface each time. Most of the bags I own will vent extra air in case of overinflation. I only have one that doesn't. I have seriously overinflated it on a number of occasions. It sits rock hard on the surface.

A further aspect is the ascent part. It's simply not possible to reel in 20 feet of vertical line in a 12-foot pool and still be underwater.

And that is important for what reason? I admit the the deepest that I personally have ever been when reeling in a line for a bag is not over 180 feet. I found that the technique at 180 feet is remarkably similar to the technique at 10 feet. It starts to get repetitive after a while.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

An injury or death caused by sending brand new divers out on a drift dive over a deep wall, when many have never seen anything more stressful than a 30' quarry with a rocky bottom, would get your ass sued off in any country with a functioning legal system.

flots.

Is it really a functioning legal system, or a society that has gotten to I'm not responsible for any of my actions, decisions, or the consequences there of! It's always somebody else's fault. Isn't diving something that from the time you start your first class that your taking personal responsibility for yourself, IE: checking the air in your tank, making sure your reg works properly, checking for proper weighting, not diving in conditions that you're not ready for?