In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

[flots am]

Is it really a functioning legal system, or a society that has gotten to I'm not responsible for any of my actions, decisions, or the consequences there of! It's always somebody else's fault. Isn't diving something that from the time you start your first class that your taking personal responsibility for yourself, IE: checking the air in your tank, making sure your reg works properly, checking for proper weighting, not diving in conditions that you're not ready for?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

New divers are by definition incapable of assessing the risk of diving in conditions hugely different than what they've experienced, and have been conditioned by all their prior SCUBA training to "follow the leader".

flots.

 

[fred3798]

We all have personal responsibility. But, when learning a dangerous activity it is reasonable and normal to look for experts who may help. We have businesses, that mke money, by advertising themselves as being experts who do exactly that - provide safety for people who are looking for it - whether because they are new, or new to this location, or just because they are willing to pay to buy the services offered. To say that consumers ought not to hurt peoples' livelihoods by pointing out that they promise safety and then - if SB is to be believed - they do not provide what they promise and it is all our own responsibility is ridiculous. Does Ford have to provide a safe car when they advertise that their cars are safe? Does GE have to provide a dishwasher that does not blow up and washes dishes? Diving is no different. We are repsonsible for our own safety in driving a car and operating our house appliances. But when we look to experts who hold themselves out as experts and take money to provide services advertised by reference to safety, it is totally reasonable and responsible to hold them to it. I didn't draft their ad copy. They advertise to attract my business. If I hire them, they better provide what they offered.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

If people are worried about dive op and DM income in Cozumel, maybe the dive ops and DMs should be more careful with new divers and not take them to places they're not actually qualified for.

flots.

Do they not mention the dive conditions in the briefings or do you just jump off the boat and follow the guide? Maybe if more divers stayed on the boat and complained to the DM, Captain and Op, Instead of following along like lemmings to the cliffs ops will change. As stated in a previous post when the larger group wants to go to a site that you're not comfortable with, what are you supposed to do, make a seen

 

[cvchief]

An injury or death caused by sending brand new divers out on a drift dive over a deep wall, when many have never seen anything more stressful than a 30' quarry with a rocky bottom, would get your ass sued off in any country with a functioning legal system.

If people are worried about dive op and DM income in Cozumel, maybe the dive ops and DMs should be more careful with new divers and not take them to places they're not actually qualified for.

flots.

Flots, I think "caused by" is where you have a problem. (I added the emphasis.) I haven't read a single report of the wall dive contributing. The most recent lost diver was reported ascending. After that, who knows, but where exactly is the wall contributing? If it had been a 60 foot dive with no wall I can't see a difference. I don't see a risk specifically related to the wall that, disregarded by the OP, would create a tort. Maybe you could sue the LDS that trained them if they aren't capable of a dive within their certification level? Failure to train?

I also think your comment is unfair about what DM and OPs ought to do. My OP and many others I am sure take very good care of new divers. My op is one boat and one group, so we don't group by skill. However, to me it might be a little scary to send a DM out with a whole group of new divers, rather than a couple in the mix. Of course I am not superdiver who gets ticked off by a trip to Columbia Shallow. Heck, we did Paridiso last trip in the daytime and we had an experienced group. Anyway, my point was your statement implies than dive ops are taking newbies to advanced sites and that is killing them. I have not seen fact to support that implication. A percentage of people die scuba diving and a lot of people dive in Cozumel, so some divers will die in Cozumel regardless of location specifics?

 

[boulderjohn]

We all have personal responsibility. But, when learning a dangerous activity it is reasonable and normal to look for experts who may help. We have businesses, that mke money, by advertising themselves as being experts who do exactly that - provide safety for people who are looking for it - whether because they are new, or new to this location, or just because they are willing to pay to buy the services offered. To say that consumers ought not to hurt peoples' livelihoods by pointing out that they promise safety and then - if SB is to be believed - they do not provide what they promise and it is all our own responsibility is ridiculous. Does Ford have to provide a safe car when they advertise that their cars are safe? Does GE have to provide a dishwasher that does not blow up and washes dishes? Diving is no different. We are repsonsible for our own safety in driving a car and operating our house appliances. But when we look to experts who hold themselves out as experts and take money to provide services advertised by reference to safety, it is totally reasonable and responsible to hold them to it. I didn't draft their ad copy. They advertise to attract my business. If I hire them, they better provide what they offered.

This is a good description of what I described earlier. ON DM-led dives, the diver has to think "I alone am responsible for my safety," while the DM simultaneously must think, "I am responsible for their safety.'

Believe me, when a diver does not survive a DM-led dive, there will be some very serious questions asked of that DM.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

New divers are by definition incapable of assessing the risk of diving in conditions hugely different than what they've experienced, and have been conditioned by all their prior SCUBA training to "follow the leader".

flots.

I guess the training I've taking with 3 ops were the exception, because follow the leader was not what they were trying to teach. But more of how to be a responsible diver was. At least that's what I got out of it.

 

[gypsyjim]

I hope you realize I was joking about the 3 hands, and I appended the word "easily."
.

Sorry. I didn't catch it, and misunderstood your post.

I was responding, because quite a few folks are a bit intimidated about deploying an SMB at depth, and it is just another skill one can learn with a bit of practice.

Myself, I was lucky that quite a few of the DNY crew hang out at Dutch Springs, and are willing to practice such skills with their fellow divers. A great way to learn a skill, and have some fun time U/W with friends. I also got a chance to work with Bob Sherwood, GUE with the skill too.

 

[cvchief]

You may be right on the March 28, 2012 event. We do not know. But if policies are adhered to that prevent stress or equipment issues from causing a drowning, that incident may have turned out differently if NOT a medical issue. If a medical issue, and not preventable by even Lloyd Bridges, then the policy that monitors them should have prevented a missing diver situation. Either way, the outcome could have been happy or less sad (no body recovery).

I do not recall if the C-53 death was medical or not. But having an experienced buddy accompany that diver may have made a difference. If my post recollection is correct, you would probably strongly support that last sentence.

I am still thinking of a tag line for my posts like Don has. Something to this effect

PROTECT OUR NOVICE COZUMEL DIVERS - Improved oversight, guidance and training is cheaper than complacency by divemasters or novice dive buddies

Update: I saw this early Dec 2011 post by a person who is reportedly the woman's (C-53 event) stepdaughter"

"Jax - just a point of reference - Suzanne did not have a medical problem. The autopsy showed no cardiac event, stroke, or any type of brain Aneurysm. She also had plenty of air. Unfortunately, we will probably never know exactly what happened."

And it is Mike who waxes eloquently about a competent buddy pair being potentially life-saving.

Ron,

I guess I don't like that tag idea, because it implies there is a problem in Cozumel. (And you more or less say that...) I mean I think if a diver starts to head for the surface, buddy or not the DM ought to try to figure out what is going on. If a diver is going up early some thing is wrong. If something is wrong, the diver may need help. Or just someone to calm their panic. Please though don't take this as a comment on a specific incident.

I agree on the buddy thing. Heck, I am now questioning my complacency. I don't stay as close to my buddy as I should, I guess. I know I have wondered off taking a picture. I should be more careful of that I guess.

Let's face it though, the common situation is a couple takes up diving and goes diving together. They are each others buddy and neither could rescue the other if it was serious. Sure they can share air and all that, but if the panic thing sets in, they probably aren't up to calming them and controlling the situation. Heck more likely the panic will spread to them as they watch their partner in trouble. It isn't like you can split them up. Who is going to leave their partner and pair with a stranger because someone you don't know says they are experienced? Which is again back to my DM has to be more than a tour guide. That seems to be the facts. Maybe the training for OW should be more rigorous. As I understand it, it is going the other way though so you have to deal with the facts on the ground.

I REALLY don't think it is fair though to perpetuate the idea that Cozumel diving is terribly advanced and should be avoid by newbies and that Cozumel DMs are tour guides only. We came as newbies, we got a good op and we learned a lot diving in Cozumel. We had all the newbie excitement and nervousness. When we had any 'trouble' early on, it was the DM who came by and helped fix it. Not that we weren't looking out for each other, but we were NEW.

I certainly don't want to see Cozumel turn into a location with just a few very large ops that have a regimented system of operations. It might be safer, but I don't like it. It would take away that personal feel. It would be like eating at McDonald's rather than El Moro. But that's just my 2 cents. Of course it seems there are quite a number of people who choose smaller, more expensive ops over some of the larger, more economical ops.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

We all have personal responsibility. But, when learning a dangerous activity it is reasonable and normal to look for experts who may help. We have businesses, that mke money, by advertising themselves as being experts who do exactly that - provide safety for people who are looking for it - whether because they are new, or new to this location, or just because they are willing to pay to buy the services offered. To say that consumers ought not to hurt peoples' livelihoods by pointing out that they promise safety and then - if SB is to be believed - they do not provide what they promise and it is all our own responsibility is ridiculous. Does Ford have to provide a safe car when they advertise that their cars are safe? Does GE have to provide a dishwasher that does not blow up and washes dishes? Diving is no different. We are repsonsible for our own safety in driving a car and operating our house appliances. But when we look to experts who hold themselves out as experts and take money to provide services advertised by reference to safety, it is totally reasonable and responsible to hold them to it. I didn't draft their ad copy. They advertise to attract my business. If I hire them, they better provide what they offered.

Here we are with another society problem, anyone that can talk a good game and put themselves out to be an expert is an expert, and it's all their fault when things go wrong. We trust them with our money, lives and think nothing of it just follow along blindly until somthing goes wrong. Ford says the car is safe, but they can't speak for the driver or the person that taught them to drive. GE says the diswasher is safe, but they can't gaurantee the installer, or electrical surges. Is it fords fault that the driver hit s telephone pole doing 90 and everyone in the car died?

 

[cvchief]

Is it fords fault that the driver hit s telephone pole doing 90 and everyone in the car died?

Yes if the accelerator stuck. No if he was just an A$$%^*&