Bent in Belize--Blue Hole Incident

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Very interesting, long thread. So what would you do?

If I went to Belize, I would most certainly take the opportunity to dive the Blue Hole. I would dive to 150 feet with an Al 80. The 8 minutes of NDL would cost me less than 20 cu ft of air. I would avoid deco or have not longer than 3-5 minutes at 10 ft. My primary computer is AI, my backup computer runs the same algorithm. I carry an SPG if my primary computer craps out. I have DAN insurance.

Is this risky?, sure it is. I also have 650 dives with more than 150 over 100 feet. Accepting risk is a diificult personal decision. Being honest is not that easy either.

Good diving, Craig

The fact that the math says you can do the dive within NDL's on an AL80 does not make it any less risky. A first stage freeflow and your back gas is gone in seconds. A dive this deep should never be attempted without redundant air. I appreciate what you say about personal risk tolerance but, with respect, if you take that risk and things go south in a hurry someone has to recover your body and your loved one's are left to deal with the loss.


I don't challenge your experience or training I am just trying to make the point that "personal risk" is rarely "personal". The outcome affects so many other people.

Bob
 
someone has to recover your body
Not really, no. But if they decide to, it will be a risk they accept willingly.
 
We are going to Belize as our next dive destination and will almost positively end up at the blue hole. Will I dive it to 150 ft? Maybe, maybe not. If I do it will be with my 10 year long dive buddy who we're both rescue divers, have done deep dives together before, I'll have a competent dive buddy who I already know how they will dive and know their dive history, I'll have back up air right next to me and vise versa, we won't dive into deco. But never in million years would I dive to 150 ft with an instant buddy and especially never in a billion years with no buddy, relying on the DM. So that said I think the dive is a calculated risk to 150 ft, with the right prep, plan and dive buddy and having training and experience I think the risks can be mitigated. But take away any of the following - the right buddy, no plan, no experience, no training and I think it's way too risky a dive.

Good point regarding backup air source. I would be diving with my son as buddy. He has equivalent skill, nearly equal experience, and we have more than 250 dives together. Not only would I be unsure of an unknown buddy's ability to support me if needed, I would be fearful of being responsible for someone of potentially unknown skills, experience, and behavior. I have had a few undesireable experiences on much less risky dives.
 
I visited the OP at his hotel this afternoon and we had a long chat. My conclusion from that is that although he made many mistakes, which he is more aware of than probably anyone, I do not believe that any of them significantly contributed to his DCS (which was real, but relatively minor). However, we both concluded that in his particular case there is a significant likelihood that he has a heart complaint, specifically a PFO. He is going to post more specifics after he has flown home. My suggestion was that after that medical issue has been researched and dealt with appropriately, I see no reasons other than directly medical why he should not dive again. Whatever happens he will now be out of the water for several months.

We also concluded that although more proactive attendance from the dive staff might have been helpful, they really did nothing wrong. He never told them he was suffering from any symptoms and as he wasn't displaying any signs no-one was put on alert. He did mention his symptoms to whoever happened to be sitting near him on the boat, but they were almost all very inexperienced so would not have recognised the significance. They should have done of course, but such is the standard of recreational dive training these days that they would not have known.

A point on the borrowed computer. It WAS taken on the first dive, by almost the only other experienced divers on the boat, and the OP noted that they were deeper than he was for virtually the entire dive. Borrowing that computer was not silly.

On the final dive, which he undertook with no computer or depth gauge, he made a point of staying above the group for the entire dive. It's not ideal but it can work quite safely.

The OP is an engineer and was as thorough as an engineer in his self-deprecation and description above of his malfeasances. His actual behaviour was nothing like as bad as he has painted.

I am convinced that his was an "undeserved" hit, prompted by a medical condition of which he was aware but of which he had not thought through the full consequences.

---------- Post Merged at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:49 PM ----------

Let me make a general point. A number of us, all ex-pat dive instructors with much dive experience in varied and often tough conditions, and teaching experience in far harsher conditions than found in Belize, all believe that standards generally here are inadequate. We would like to change it, but due to the "Tour Guide" laws and the restriction of that qualification to Belizean citizens, we neither have the clout to do anything nor are we listened to. I know many incidents are never reported, and whilst I don't want to alarm people into thinking it's worse than it actually is, nonetheless I hear occasionally (this afternoon there was a case in point) of incidents/accidents that never reached the newspapers or even street gossip. I worked for several years in close association with the Chamber here, the only one in Belize, and I learned of many incidents that never saw the light of day. There seems to be a feeling that if people don't hear about it it never happened. This is not restricted to diving incidents, but anything in any sphere of tourism that could be considered "bad news". A visitor picked up on this recently in the diving context and posted much the same in these pages, but he perhaps didn't express himself very well and earned a lot of approbium for saying what was essentially the truth. We are trying to change this culture, but it is a very steep uphill struggle. A major part of this is that Belize has no governing body for diving, effective or otherwise. Extraordinary for a country so dependent on the activity. I have dived in no other country with such a total absence of oversight, and that is at the root of the problem. There are nonetheless some pretty competent dive centers, but even they do silly things sometimes.

Please pass the cool aid. :shakehead:

Every thread with a diver relating a bad experience with the blue hole has peter posting damage control. Now you're doing medical analysis through a bed side chat that requires a Echocardiogram using a Color-flow Doppler or Saline contrast study or a test called a Transesophageal echocardiogram.

Let's get back to reality -

OP did a trust me dive without a buddy beyond rec limits. (All sponsored, controlled and suggested by the Belize dive shop he was diving with) WTF?????

The dive shop planned for this to be a deco dive. WTF??????

Which we know because they told the OP "your computer will probably go into deco" WTF??????

The OP went into the water with a computer that was showing errors, but it fixed itself he said when he went into the water. WTF???? Based on everything else he did I'm pretty sure it's safe to say with errors or not, the OP wouldn't have aborted the dive if his computer didn't clear.

There was a diver on this dive with 4 dives total. WTF?????? He went OOA. Shocker. Nice screening by the dive shop, let's take a diver with 4 dives to 150 ft! WTF????

The OP borrows a strangers computer for the 2nd dive and does that as a deco dive on somebody elses computer! WTF????

He does a 3rd dive without even a depth gauge WTF???? On a dive that ends up requiring physical exertion to fight a current, he guaged his dive by watching his previously borrowed computer on another divers wrist from afar... this dive too became a deco dive, or the OP guesses it was since he had no actual equipment... WTF???

No judgement on the diver, but my Lord, those are the facts as presented by the OP, and in conclusion it's just business as usual in Belize, and the diver probably had a previous medical condition that resulted in DCS, which as analyzed now was mild even though he took 3 chamber rides, and was really an 'undeserved hit'.

Wow.

 
One part of this I don't understand,
A lot of Americans are condemning the actions of the dive shop for allowing the guy to dive and all the other points...and how Belize has a poor standard for diver safety.
On the other hand, I see posts in other threads how dive ops in the US don't send a DM in the water and everyone is pretty much on their own. Many divers seem to resent a "babysitting" dm in the water.
How would this diver have faired in the US on a dive boat?
I'm not trolling. I have never dived in the US. Except to test a new reg once in my sister's pool...
 
Not really, no. But if they decide to, it will be a risk they accept willingly.

Just as we willingly accept the risks involved with driving, knowing we will always encounter irresponsible, wrecklees drivers. You can spin it all day long, but wreckless diving is, among other things, selfish, indefensible behavior. Someone will put their life in danger to come look for you and recover your body. Loved one's will suffer. Takes a uniquely selfish, inconsiderate breed of cat to dive irresponsibly.
 
One part of this I don't understand,
A lot of Americans are condemning the actions of the dive shop for allowing the guy to dive and all the other points...and how Belize has a poor standard for diver safety.
On the other hand, I see posts in other threads how dive ops in the US don't send a DM in the water and everyone is pretty much on their own. Many divers seem to resent a "babysitting" dm in the water.
How would this diver have faired in the US on a dive boat?
I'm not trolling. I have never dived in the US. Except to test a new reg once in my sister's pool...

as i see it, the big problem is when the baby sitter decides to take his charges out to local bar for a good time. many new divers seem to need help to really get in trouble. on their own, they know they will have to take care of themselves and will tend to do so.
 
I'll just add that in our several-hour chat many things were discussed that have not been revealed by either the diver or myself. Nor will I reveal them. My views, and that's all they are, are based on a lot more than is printed in this thread.
 
One part of this I don't understand,
A lot of Americans are condemning the actions of the dive shop for allowing the guy to dive and all the other points...and how Belize has a poor standard for diver safety.
On the other hand, I see posts in other threads how dive ops in the US don't send a DM in the water and everyone is pretty much on their own. Many divers seem to resent a "babysitting" dm in the water.
How would this diver have faired in the US on a dive boat?
I'm not trolling. I have never dived in the US. Except to test a new reg once in my sister's pool...

Short answer: Here in the Northeastern US, he wouldn't be allowed to get on the boat without a redundant air source, a reel, a lift bag, etc. Required minimum safety equipment on most boats.

I read through this whole thing and it shocks me that everyone seems to think it's ok to do three dives in a day. Granted, my dives are usually in the 100 minute to 2 hour range, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've done two dives in a day in the past ten years. I'm no instructor or MD, but I think multiple dives put way more wear and tear on the body and increase the liklihood of having a problem even if you follow proper deco schedules, which was not the case here.
 
as i see it, the big problem is when the baby sitter decides to take his charges out to local bar for a good time. many new divers seem to need help to really get in trouble. on their own, they know they will have to take care of themselves and will tend to do so.


A father takes his child out for a drive. The child has their beginners permit that stipulates they may not drive on the highway and they know that. Dad says "Don't worry. It will be fine. I am here just in case anything happens". The child says to themselves "OK. If Dad (an accepted authority figure) says it will be OK then I will do as he says.". They get into an accident and everybody says "What were you thinking? You know you should not do that!". But Dad said it was OK to do it.....

I wholly agree that divers need to be responsible for their own actions however with the caveat that I understand the influence a person of perceived power and control can have on one's thought process. The dive shops are convincing these new divers that it will be fine. IMO they are being nothing short of negligent every time they take any diver down to 150+ feet with no buddy and only an AL80 on their back. It would be nice if the safety standards would be improved before deaths occur but with the attitude seen here, I doubt that will happen. The shops that are represented here are only interested in ensuring the tradition of overcharging people for this dive will live on so they can reap the rewards of it.

---------- Post Merged at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:16 PM ----------

I would like to add a question for all those people that are arguing that there is nothing unsafe about taking a newly certified diver to 150+ feet with no buddy and an AL80 strapped to their back.

Let's assume you have a child that was just certified and they wanted to do this dive without you and under the conditions stipulated above. Let's also say they have the sac rate of the average adult male. Would you feel absolutely no concern about letting them go?
 
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