Concerns About Length of Open Water Course

[DevonDiver]

Did you recognize that almost everything I pointed out for teaching is required by law, something that does not exist for scuba? Do you realize that this limits what agencies can do in terms of regulation?

Well, PADI have always advocated self-regulation within the scuba industry. So...where is that self-regulation? It seems to have been abandoned... because, as you say, the agency/ies aren't taking responsibility for it. And if/when the community raise issues, there always seem to be an element that wishes to brand them as naysayers...

So,... who/when/how/where is that regulation occurring? Or isn't it?

Do you have any idea what it would cost to implement such a system for scuba?

John, I don't know. I guess it's a profit-margin thing for the agency/ies. At the moment, they seem very used to low expenditure and high income.

Do you have any idea what it would cost the scuba industry to match the cost of the public education system, a system which apparently does not do any better to produce quality teachers?

Well, I don't think the size of the scuba industry 'quite' matches the public education system. Neither do I think the scope of scuba education 'quite' matches the public education system. So, I don't think the costs or requirements would equate at all...

But, in principle, much, much, much more could be done...




"2) Anger — "It's not our problem, we did everything we could!"...."

---------- Post added December 20th, 2013 at 10:45 AM ----------

There are quite a few affluent people in Melbourne, pehaps they would pay that much for private instruction??

I went freelance/independent a few years ago. It works with specialized course (sidemount/tech/wreck) because people tend to become more aware of the need for expertise instruction at those levels. I sell enough of those courses, at sufficient cost, to maintain a humble income that allows me to live and maintain my passion for diving instruction.

I did continue offering 'private' recreational-level classes for a few years - but the cost implications, couple with lack of consumer awareness of the benefits, meant little or no demand for that training. At Open Water level, where the same 'c-card' is issued regardless of quality of training, there just isn't much scope to charge more - especially in vacation-focused markets where the competitor dive operations can offset very cheap courses through alternative revenue streams.

Websites and 'consumer education' are largely irrelevant, because most people booking for dive courses are "walk-ins" at dive centers and/or just book directly through a dive center/resort where they are staying anyway. Very few vacationers go online to do any research whatsoever before, or during, their vacation.

In my area, most dive centers are resorts. They can significantly cut course costs because they recoup profit from selling hotel rooms, meals, drinks at the bar etc etc. They can also employ instructors willing to 'work for the experience' and peanuts. They can also deliver courses to bare-minimum requirements - a factor that 99% of vacationing students are oblivious too... and don't care about because they still "get their diving license", but spend 50% less in doing so...

...and then we consider how PADI price their materials: big discounts for the bulk-selling IRRA member resorts/centers. Max price for the small-scale freelancers etc.

...and then we consider that there aren't 'dive charter' boats... the only dive boats are those run by dive centers/resorts. And guess what, they aren't hugely agreeable to offering cut-price spaces on their boats to their competitors... go figure that....

Pete seems unaware of those cost implications and realities... because 'in his world' everywhere functions like the Keys...

 

[austrooper]

I just spent some time revising the new PADI OW course requirements.

There is no way anyone can say that the course can now be delivered in two days.

BTW I really like the changes, I always thought is was very strange that we didn't teach students DSMB deployment, now its included with a whole other bunch of things.

 

[DevonDiver]

I just spent some time revising the new PADI OW course requirements. There is no way anyone can say that the course can now be delivered in two days.

What stops the new course being done in 2 days?

At present, the only standard preventing shorter than 2 days is the limitation on 3 training dives per day. So you have Confined 1-5 plus Dive #1 on the first day, then Dives #2-3 on the second day.

It's certainly not the volume or complexity of skills taught, or considerations of student overload that prevents less ethical dive operations from doing shorter...

 

[austrooper]

Teach 6 students how to deploy and dsmb is an extra 45 minutes + the mini dive planning in the pool is an extra 30-45 minutes + the students planning and executing OW dive 4 is an extra 30-45 minutes.

When you teach in 2 days every minute counts

 

[The Chairman]

Pete seems unaware of those cost implications and realities... because 'in his world' everywhere functions like the Keys...

Can't seem to let it go, eh? I've worked out commercial deals with ops throughout the Caribbean, on the left coast and have even worked out a deal with a dive op in Fiji, though I've never got to use that. Now, if they have your perspective, I can see that they would be narrow minded. However, most every dive op sees me not as a competitor when I am bringing them business, but as a partner. Again, you refer to all these differences that I can't comprehend or don't understand and that's just a load of shenanigans. Look at what Austrooper did: he choose ethics over everything else which is what I suggested. He and his family are not going to get deported as you suggested, are they? He's proven that things just aren't that different after all, hasn't he? There are going to be cultural and economic variations around the globe. Some areas require a native guide, some require a short class or orientation and most require work visas if you're going to act as a professional. Regardless of our location, the agencies require that we follow their rules and that includes producing divers that are capable of diving in our environment without supervision. To enforce this, almost every agency uses a report method to identify and track offenders. Some are quite proactive in sending out questionnaires while others simply wait for upset customers, injuries and even deaths. You want to claim that this is somehow different in the Pacific then it is here in the Caribbean, but you haven't produced a shred of evidence to that effect. Face it, you just can't admit when you're wrong, which is precisely what you accuse me of. Stop with the personal attacks and sniping already. It's tiresome and when you get proven wrong have the humility to accept it rather than go on another attack. You eviscerate your credibility with your ongoing hostility. Contrary to your opinions otherwise, there just isn't enough money in our sport to change that report system dramatically. You can get all outraged and call PADI on the carpet, but in the end you provide no viable solutions for the problems you claim that are happening. All we get is bitter sniping at people who deign to disagree with you and a constant bashing of PADI. For those interested, no, I am not a PADI instructor.

In the final analysis, I'm glad that we have conscientious instructors like Austrooper around. He's taking a stand, not with his agency but with his dive op on the quality of divers they are putting out. After all, instructors produce divers: not agencies. I would love to see him work things out where he can continue to teach independently if his shop won't listen to reason. A lot of independents find a number of students right here on ScubaBoard. The more you specialize, the easier that seems to do.

What stops the new course being done in 2 days?

He's said it before: Ethics.

 

[Colliam7]

I have decided I am not going to teach anymore as my initial concerns and the reason I made the inital post have been confirmed by all the feedback.

And, I suspect that more than a few people who have posted here will be concerned that an apparently conscientious - at least, conscientious enough to raise the issue about safety and process to begin with - ultimately concludes that withdrawing from teaching is the only solution to their dilemma. Individually, I am disappointed but I also applaud the integrity of the decision.

Your subsequent post about what it would cost to 'go independent' is a very good illustration of the challenges facing the industry. The chances of you attracting a substantial number of customers, at the per student price you would need to charge to essentially break even, is not particularly great. The cost, in time and material, to provide individualized scuba instruction tailored to the student's needs and initial abilities, is not insignificant. There are quite a few posters here who offer that kind of individualized instruction. In many cases, the numbers they teach are very small. In other cases, the numbers are sufficient to make the endeavor worthwhile, and possibly even sufficient to allow the instructor to teach full-time, albeit while leading a rather modest life style. Often, that is enough and these individuals teach because of the personal characteristic that Pete pointed out - passion. Most (not all, just most) scuba instructors teach as an adjunct to other gainful employment. The instructional market is more fully populated by shops / individuals who are willing to offer instruction at low prices, possibly by compromising on the content of the instruction, or by elimination any profit and using instruction as a 'loss leader'.

Is this situation wrong / bad / evil / unethical / illegal, etc? Not necessarily. It is basic market economics. People pay what they want to pay, and get what they pay for. I don't want government intervention or regulation to change it. I would rather that it be changed by the efforts of those with passion. The Baskin-Robbins ice cream stores often post a quote on their walls, 'There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey.' That may be true for ice cream. I personally think it is true in the case of inexpensive (cost) and cheap (quality) hand tools made in China, from poor quality, soft steel. And, we could easily fill a room with people who believe it is true with regard to scuba instruction. But, I choose not to 'curse the rain' - the abundance it brings me are the smaller number of students who want to learn to dive and are willing to pay fairly for that opportunity.

 

[The Chairman]

It is basic market economics. People pay what they want to pay, and get what they pay for.

While I fully agree with much of what you wrote, I think we are our own worse enemy. For so long, classes were seen as a loss leader for gear sales and even now for hotel stays. At the current prices, it's hard for any dive op to pay all the bills associated with teaching a student. Unfortunately, many of them simply cut out time and use that to justify paying their instructor a lot less. A few on ScubaBoard decry such an action as rampant greed, when it fact it's nothing but an act of desperation. We've got to figure out a way to change the public's awareness about what a decent Scuba class should cost and their perception that they can learn Scuba in a day or two. No, we don't need a full week, at least I don't, but we do need adequate time to get them comfortable with their new environment and gear. That's one of the reasons why I would hate for someone like Austrooper to stop teaching. People can't understand darkness until they are exposed to the light.

I don't want government intervention or regulation to change it. I would rather that it be changed by the efforts of those with passion.

Probably the best thing posted in this thread so far.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think whether or not you can make it as an independent depends upon where you live. In some areas, the diving culture is actually supportive of independent instruction; in other areas, not so much.

I spend time every year in south Florida, and I think I could easily work as an independent there. Local shops have reasonable rental rates for students of independents. Local dive boats give discounts to students and instructors. On the other hand, where I live in Colorado, though, all local shops have their own instructors and would not generally be supportive of an independent renting gear for a competing instructor's students. I would have to own and maintain a significant inventory of gear and tanks, and I would need my own compressor. It is doable, but that increased overhead would become part of my cost structure.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It really all depends on the class as well. I noted that I have to, by standards, spend so much time in the water and classroom with students IF I cert them through SEI. Two years ago I did crossover to SDI. So I can choose either. SDI does not have the same time requirements but they do have the same MORAL and ETHICAL requirements for me to certify a student. I have to be sure that I would dive with the student and that I would allow a loved one to dive with them and me or other professional not be present.

So what that means to me is I have to continue teaching the way I have been and offer the same knowledge and skills at the same level. Are there any places I could conceivably save time and be ok with it in my mind? Yes. SDI offers elearning so there are some cases where I would not have to do a two hour lecture. I could cut it in half because I've looked at the e learning option and it covers a lot but not enough IMO for divers in our local conditions. And that is what I train to. It also does not offer some of the additional material I have developed and use in my classes that I feel is essential for the OW diver. I'd still have to cover that.

As for water time maybe I could cut a session if the students were very comfortable and picked up AND RETAINED the skills between sessions. They might be able to clear the mask a dozen times in the first pool session with no problem and I often have them do that. Maybe not a dozen but at least 8-10. But if they can't nail the next one first time there's a problem. It's why every session begins with Mask R&R, Reg R & R, and weight system R&R. After the first they need to do them neutral at the start of the session.

In the second session they are going to be doing that while sharing air. Then each session after some task will be added to that. And in order for me to say that I'd allow them to dive with one of my loved ones they are going to have to have the rescue skills SEI and I feel are necessary for an OW diver. No way will I cert a student without those and that takes a full session. So at best I could with students who are really on the ball go from 16 hours down to 12. No less. And then we'd spend extra time at the OW site going over other things so when they get their card from me I can do it with a clear conscience.

I could see ending up with maybe a 20-22 hour course vs 32 doing this. But the students would have to be very good and encounter no problems. And then we'd still have two 8 hour days for the six checkout dives. 1 skin and 5 scuba.

I have been thinking about this since DEMA and decided that I am going to offer the option. But reserve the right at any time during the course to go to the full 32 hour version if I see someone is having problems.

And one thing I am going to do to distinguish my course is to raise prices. My Advanced is on average $100 more than any other around me. And I have had no problems getting students for it once they see the content. And I think that is going to help get my OW noticed and accepted. Making the content clear and compared with other OW courses.

 

[boulderjohn]

And one thing I am going to do to distinguish my course is to raise prices.

A couple of years ago, a participant in a thread mentioned a pretty long and expensive PADI OW course in Florida. I looked it up online and found that it was indeed a long and relatively expensive course. The shop offering it was in the middle of an area with a lot of other courses being offered at much less cost and for much less time. Their web site had a very nicely worded explanation about why it cost more. They promised that their students would finish the course with skills that would make that cost and effort worth while.

They seemed to be in business. I suspect that people who follow that approach can be successful. I don't think you have to be going after the least common denominator at all times.