So many responses have covered the sheer lunacy and tragedy of this event. It seems like its just part of human nature to be drawn to danger and to human misery and I'm as guilty as the next person.I'm pretty sure if I started a thread with the title "New safety guidelines announced" it would get far less views then "Death at X". Of course I would never ever go into a cave without adequate training and I have no plans to go to EN for any kind of diving but if I suddenly found myself at THAT site near THAT hole wouldn't there be just a little part of me tempted to have a look,just a peek, I have my wreck after all and it wouldn't be a full penetration just my head. oh thats how people die.
Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL
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This thread is for the most part about diver safety, and more specifically how to prevent future incidents under similar circumstances. It seems obvious to me that the root cause was lack of training, and as a corollary diving beyond ones limits.
Of course if you poked your head into the opening of the cave, you would most likely survive. But what is the point in doing that? I see that as very similar to an OW diver with a suggested limit of 60' doing a dive to 61'.
It was in the Cave Divers Forum. You need to be a member to go there, but that is just a matter of signing up.
Everything he said was brought to this forum, so there is nothing to learn there.
I would liken what they did to taking up juggling and jumping right up to three chainsaws, two flaming bowling balls and a stray tomcat with a personality disorder... its going to end badly!
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drrich2
Contributor
In summarizing points made by different people across a range of postings, it's interesting to see what people think the take-home lessons are.
There is an old saying, 'You can't make anything fool-proof because fools are so ingenious.'
It came to my mind as some posters pointed out the futility of thinking we're ever going to keep all those unfit for cave diving (due to lack of training/uncertified) out of caves, regardless of what you do.
You can tell people, post warning signs, etc...and at the end of the day, as long as human beings have free will and a measure of liberty, there'll be a few deaths here and there.
Richard.
There is an old saying, 'You can't make anything fool-proof because fools are so ingenious.'
It came to my mind as some posters pointed out the futility of thinking we're ever going to keep all those unfit for cave diving (due to lack of training/uncertified) out of caves, regardless of what you do.
You can tell people, post warning signs, etc...and at the end of the day, as long as human beings have free will and a measure of liberty, there'll be a few deaths here and there.
Richard.
dbulmer
Contributor
Disagree a bit Richard.
A human being can have free will and a measure of liberty - what will possibly lead to a fatality is exercising poor judgement in a context where excellent judgement is required and where a previous context is no longer relevant.
In this double fatality, the deceased exercised poor judgement on numerous occasions - they rolled a dice on previous dives and were lucky enough to be able to roll a dice again until the event that killed them.
A long winded way of saying that they hoped it would be alright on the day as opposed to ensuring that it would be alright on the day. They ended up dead because they did not comprehend (were ignorant of) the consequences of their actions.
AFAIK Cave training addresses the consquences of your actions.
A human being can have free will and a measure of liberty - what will possibly lead to a fatality is exercising poor judgement in a context where excellent judgement is required and where a previous context is no longer relevant.
In this double fatality, the deceased exercised poor judgement on numerous occasions - they rolled a dice on previous dives and were lucky enough to be able to roll a dice again until the event that killed them.
A long winded way of saying that they hoped it would be alright on the day as opposed to ensuring that it would be alright on the day. They ended up dead because they did not comprehend (were ignorant of) the consequences of their actions.
AFAIK Cave training addresses the consquences of your actions.
drrich2
Contributor
dbulmer:
I don't disagree with your post here. What I meant to express was the idea that some adults, having free will and a measure of liberty, will exercise their own judgment to make decisions and take actions that most reasonable observers would deem foolish and dangerous. On occasion, this will result in serious bodily harm or fatality. The greater the liberty afforded to adult citizens of a 'free' society, the more opportunities for and occurrences of foolish, dangerous decision making there will be, and the more serious injury & fatality incidents will occur, although we can try to minimize these by measures that don't substantially reduce freedom (e.g.: warning signs & other public education measures).
This is a tough issue. Lacking prophetic hindsight, none of us can make decisions knowing the future consequences of our actions. We can assess risk and predict reasonably foreseeable likely consequences. I think these 2 knew what they were doing was dangerous. How thoroughly they appreciated that danger is hard to say. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that if they thoroughly understood the risks they wouldn't have made the dive, but that's unknown. Many people deliberately do things they know full well are risky. A t.v. commercial used to say smoking kills 1 in 4 smokers. The public is well aware smoking is quite dangerous. Yet people still take up smoking.
Thankfully I don't think most people train their kids to smoke, though...
Richard.
I don't disagree with your post here. What I meant to express was the idea that some adults, having free will and a measure of liberty, will exercise their own judgment to make decisions and take actions that most reasonable observers would deem foolish and dangerous. On occasion, this will result in serious bodily harm or fatality. The greater the liberty afforded to adult citizens of a 'free' society, the more opportunities for and occurrences of foolish, dangerous decision making there will be, and the more serious injury & fatality incidents will occur, although we can try to minimize these by measures that don't substantially reduce freedom (e.g.: warning signs & other public education measures).
This is a tough issue. Lacking prophetic hindsight, none of us can make decisions knowing the future consequences of our actions. We can assess risk and predict reasonably foreseeable likely consequences. I think these 2 knew what they were doing was dangerous. How thoroughly they appreciated that danger is hard to say. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that if they thoroughly understood the risks they wouldn't have made the dive, but that's unknown. Many people deliberately do things they know full well are risky. A t.v. commercial used to say smoking kills 1 in 4 smokers. The public is well aware smoking is quite dangerous. Yet people still take up smoking.
Thankfully I don't think most people train their kids to smoke, though...
Richard.
gianaameri
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On the other end, to take your minor son who had no prior dive training whatsoever into a cave environment for which you as an adult had no formal training whatsoever, and had no way of knowing what to expect or what not to expect, and how to risk assess the environment, is pure stupidity/foolishness/death-wish (as in the specifics of this sad incident).
You just cannot make a calculated risk (and accept the risks) when you are completely ignorant of the risks you are facing (i.e lacking cave training, the Dad, and any training whatsoever, the son.
You just cannot make a calculated risk (and accept the risks) when you are completely ignorant of the risks you are facing (i.e lacking cave training, the Dad, and any training whatsoever, the son.
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drrich2
Contributor
My observations pertain to the Father, an adult. There's been a lot less controversy over the son's decisional capacity.
While not well-informed through proper cave dive training, the father would not have been completely ignorant, either. He was made aware cave diving is dangerous. Signs are posted. There is easy access to a plethora of scuba-related websites, forums, etc..., and one can easily do enough research to know that cave diving is very dangerous to the inadequately prepared.
I believe he would have known enough to know what he was doing was quite dangerous, and yet he chose to proceed anyway. On some level he did take a calculated risk. An ill-informed, badly calculated risk with inadequate information, but not no info. at all.
Richard.
gianaameri
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He made a decision to ignore the warning signs, but that does not constitute a calculated risk.
A calculated risk is when you have the information (not necessarily all/complete information, but as much as possible) upon which to make a risk assessment.
All the Dad had is a warning sign, which in itself lacks all the information upon which to make a risk assessment.
Nonetheless, he did knowingly chose to ignore the warning signs and the words of Mr. B. (i.e. as quoted by the papers). The Dad brought it upon himself and this was not by accident, but by his choice (i.e. he was amply and adequately warned).
Yet many divers have died before him untrained in caves, and many in all likelihood will in the future...
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