Appropriate to ask for a refund? Trip report from my first salt water dive!

[DeepSeaExplorer]

A rain check or even a free air card is a good option. It gives the customer something and costs the dive op almost nothing.

Sure, ops have overhead just like any other business, but if they run off some of their customers, those costs will be even more difficult to manage.

If you look at all the big box stores, they will take back almost anything under almost any circumstances. Even with the new iPhones, you get a 15 or 30 day trial period where you can send it back if you don't like it. That must cost them a fortune. But, they realize that repeat customers are important. No op wants someone bellyaching on the internet about their business, and they want those glowing referrals when someone asks who to dive with. How much is that swing from a negative to a positive worth to their business? Way more than a free dive, that's for sure. Instead, the OP could have been on here talking about how the Op really took care of him when he got screwed by some random DMs.

A buddy once told me that his business partner wanted to screw everyone that came in the door and he operated that way for years. He admitted, yeah you can make money doing that in a large metro area, because there are so many potential customers. He didn't want to work like that and preferred to try to win customers over, so he sold out for various reasons. So either model works, but as customers we try to navigate around those types when we can, which is why we have all the posts asking who to dive with, right?

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Precisely why I never want a credit. If you really are trying to solve the problem, make it right and do the right thing, it's a refund. Everybody knows that credits are smoke and mirrors. Refund, lets start over from zero. I may or may not ever want to darken your door again, refund me and then I'll see what I want to do.

As a customer, I agree with you a 100%. A refund is preferable and the right thing to do when a vendor screws up (or at should least they should give you a choice).

There are lots of circumstances when its not real clear who screwed up or how bad it was. The all or nothing approach get prohibitively expensive for the vendor if every time something does not work out exactly as desired.

The problem to solve is how to appease a customer without going broke.

 

[mrdre]

...There are lots of circumstances when its not real clear who screwed up or how bad it was. The all or nothing approach get prohibitively expensive for the vendor if every time something does not work out exactly as desired. ...

It always comes down to what was advertised and how the business acquired the customer. It's a legal standard in practically every civilized market in the world. We don't know the circumstances of OP's situation, but let's explore some theoretical cases. Dive Op posts on the web-site: "Come dive with us, no experience is necessary, we will provide guides for extra $20.". A customer said "cool" and chose him over the competitor who advertised "Come dive with us, we don't provide guides, but we can recommend one for you".

Now, you went on to diving and the guide said "ah, I'm tired, I ain't diving". In first case, it's absolutely Ops responsibility to refund you 100% of the trip, because he didn't deliver what was advertised. If the first operator then claimed that the guide is a "separate business" and got nothing to do with him, then you can accuse him of unfairly wining the customer over the competition. You chose that particular operator because of what he advertised.

If the customer went with the second Op, then the operator bears absolutely no responsibility for what the guide did. It was customer's choice (albeit based by recommendation), but he could have picked any other guide. It was his choice, and the customer have to deal with DM separately. The operator isn't even suppose to hear the customer complain - he advertised getting the diver to the dive spot and bring him back, and he did.

Same when you buy anything else. If it's sold "as is", and the seller states that, you bought and it's not working - that's it, you lost your money. Otherwise you are entitled for the refund if what you bought wasn't what was advertised. Obviously to the argument "if we will be refunding to every customer we screw we will go out of business" you will reply "well, then just go out of business".

 

[EFX]

No one gets ahead when you have an bad customer experience. A dive op works different than a retailer or most services. The boat, diesel, insurance and crew cost remain the same if the boat is loaded with 2 divers or 20. So the cost of a credit is much less than the cost of a refund unless the dive boat run full on a regular basis.

I think we're talking past each other. Here's the facts as I understand them. The op payed for a 2-tank dive on a charter that included an extra service charge of $20 per dive for a private DM. What he paid was $x for the two dives + $40 for a private DM. The first dive was cut short because the DM had a cramp. The second dive there was no DM. The refund of the $20 was for the second dive that was not DM led and did not get provided to the customer. I agree with most posters that the dive portion should not be refunded. If you insist on a credit it should be of equal value of $20 for the missing DM private service for the second dive. The cost of the boat, diesel, insurance, snacks, captains jokes and what ever else you want to throw in has been paid and will NOT get refunded or credited because he completed two dives, bottom time not withstanding.

 

[Mike]

As a customer, I agree with you a 100%. A refund is preferable and the right thing to do when a vendor screws up (or at should least they should give you a choice).

There are lots of circumstances when its not real clear who screwed up or how bad it was. The all or nothing approach get prohibitively expensive for the vendor if every time something does not work out exactly as desired.

The problem to solve is how to appease a customer without going broke.

Very true. I eat stuff for customers for the sake of keeping the peace all the time. We finally got smart and now make them sign a release that with acceptance of the concession they waive all rights to publicly write or speak of our company in any way. We're done with the asinine customer from hell who you do everything possible to make them happy whether they are in the right or not and then they go skewer you on social media after we give in to their consumer black male of getting in our pocket for hundreds of dollars.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Yup, we are talking past each other, the odds of anything related the OP after 50 replies is pretty slim. I think what the dive operator did (refund the 2nd dive DM) was reasonable.

I just advanced the idea a credit can be used to a diver operators advantage when a diver is not a happy camper. Sometimes the line of who is responsible for what is grey and a little credit can salve the wound at minimal cost. As Mike pointed out, a credit is worth less than a full refund. If you are in the grey zone, it should still work.

---------- Post added October 17th, 2014 at 06:27 PM ----------

Very true. I eat stuff for customers for the sake of keeping the peace all the time. We finally got smart and now make them sign a release that with acceptance of the concession they waive all rights to publicly write or speak of our company in any way. We're done with the asinine customer from hell who you do everything possible to make them happy whether they are in the right or not and then they go skewer you on social media after we give in to their consumer black male of getting in our pocket for hundreds of dollars.

Speaking of that DRIS did very well last week when someone tried to skewer them. One complaint, 200+ positive post.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Speaking of that DRIS did very well last week when someone tried to skewer them. One complaint, 200+ positive post.

If a customer tries to skewer a niche business in a niche on-line forum in which many participants are familiar with the business, he's not going to fool anyone.

 

[Scared Silly]

Late to the party but still have a few thoughts.

First, props to the OP for hiring a DM for the dives. That was great thinking.

The first DM had an issue and called the dive. The OP seemed to roll with that pretty well.

First DM also tried to fix the situation when they could not do the second dive. Props to them for that.

However, the first DM appeared to fail to communicate to the second DM the customer service side. Or the second DM did get that message but decided to squeeze in a dive anyways. To me this the real failure and the OP is right to be PO'ed

As such, I would agree that in totality of the situation the DM fees should have been refunded as they were. Refund on the dives. No. But as gesture of wanting to retain the OP's business offering something towards future diving would be in order. That is just good business sense.


Here is an example, the boat was to leave at 1pm. Two customers got caught in traffic due to an accident. They called the shop and the captain decided to hold the boat for them as they were going to be 30-45 minutes late. No one was told but no big deal initially. But then once they arrived the boat had issues. Around 2:30 we wondered what was going on. Heard we were waiting for two divers but no they were there and wondering as well. Was finally told the boat had an issue and should be leaving in about 30 minutes. Sure enough we left - two at shack and come right back. I.e. we got in two dives and though one was a twilight the boat offered lights for those who needed. Not quite as planned but all in all good service. My only complaint was the initial lack of communication of why we were waiting. I spoke with owner and noted my concern. He agreed and said here at two 50% coupons off for another trip. Even went out to find other divers who were still at the dock. Excellent followup. I would dive with them again.

The measure of business is not when they get it right - that is what I am paying for. The measure of a business comes when something does wrong and how they handle the issue.

 

[RJP]

The measure of business is not when they get it right - that is what I am paying for. The measure of a business comes when something does wrong and how they handle the issue.

Tru dat.

 

[PhatD1ver]

I think that dives can be and are cut short for any number of reasons. If you're going to be bummed about missing 10 minutes of a dive and want a refund, how will you feel about sitting g on a liveaboard for 4 days waiting out weather? It does happen, and it's just a part of diving, or any sport. Paying for an expensive ski vacation and it doesn't snow, going on a cruise and it's cloudy, etc. you paid the boat for transportation to and from a dive site with no warranty expressed or implied that you would even get in the water. I don't see any basis for a refund.

Exactly I want the number of those two typhoons that bracketed my week in Saipan, making me loose more than half my dives... I had two tank boat dives planned every morning and two tank shore dives every after noon, but there was no were you could get a shore dive with one typhoon causing storm surge on the west side of the island, and another tearing it up on the east side.... nice place, but no one is going to be giving refunds for 'unforeseen difficulties and weather'