Cave Certs Expiration

[tbone1004]

Are you CCR diving now?

very soon, but that doesn't change their general rule of 1.5x, not 2x, and not having a 2x buffer is violating rule of thirds. I'm OK with 1.5x btw, I have nothing against it so long as you are planning solo bailout, but it's the same math for DPV planning which I am doing, and for both of those activities many divers, and especially instructors are carrying woefully inadequate bailout. I.e. a pair of al40's to the Henkel.... not cool.... hell, we had a death earlier this year because of it

 

[Imbodie]

You are forced to go through full cave if you want to dive in sidemount because neither NAUI nor GUE will let you take the course in sidemount

NAUI cave 1-basically equivalent to apprentice, taught typically in 5 days. No deco, dive to thirds, 2 nav decisions. I.e. you can do the crossover circuit in Peacock, jump into and out of // lines in JB, etc etc.

I'm NAUI Cave1 and did my class in SideMount...

 

[kensuf]

very soon, but that doesn't change their general rule of 1.5x, not 2x, and not having a 2x buffer is violating rule of thirds. I'm OK with 1.5x btw, I have nothing against it so long as you are planning solo bailout, but it's the same math for DPV planning which I am doing, and for both of those activities many divers, and especially instructors are carrying woefully inadequate bailout. I.e. a pair of al40's to the Henkel.... not cool.... hell, we had a death earlier this year because of it

CCR bailout is an interesting thing. On the one hand, in order for two people to get on the same bailout source means that you've had two CCR failures, which besides being an incredibly rare event, is one hell of a bad day. But on the other hand, the minute you have a CO2 problem you're going to hoove through OC gas like it's going out of style.

There's nothing wrong with bringing plenty of bailout gas. I shoot for 2x what I think is necessary to get me home. My last trip beyond the Henkel involved bringing a stage bottle plus two full 85's jacked to 3600. We never went beyond 4200' either. But I'm a weenie about these things.

 

[NAM001]

I glad to hear that more agencies issue permanent cards. I, my self, have no interest to doing the mile penetration or exploration aspects of cave. Im happy with doing 100 ft if there is something there to see or marvel over. Ill even do a tag along but still having the ability to render the needed assistance as needed. Although I have no personal basis for this comment I would say that most all the precaution is gained in intro for guys like me. As training goes , there should not be any relief in criteria for those like me. Training should remain the same mostly and leave it to the discresion of the student as to deciding if the next step is advanced, full dpv, or other.

 

[rjack321]

CCR bailout is an interesting thing. On the one hand, in order for two people to get on the same bailout source means that you've had two CCR failures, which besides being an incredibly rare event, is one hell of a bad day. But on the other hand, the minute you have a CO2 problem you're going to hoove through OC gas like it's going out of style.

There's nothing wrong with bringing plenty of bailout gas. I shoot for 2x what I think is necessary to get me home. My last trip beyond the Henkel involved bringing a stage bottle plus two full 85's jacked to 3600. We never went beyond 4200' either. But I'm a weenie about these things.

I guess I'm a bit bolder, I plan for 1 major but I do use an elevated SAC rate of almost 1cfm. I "plan" to use all my BO, but any sidemount bottles I have on have long hoses so its all donatable if it came to that. So all useable but also shareable.
Net, I'll scooter to Henkel like distances (hole in the wall, JB, etc) on 85s minus the stage but prefer 95s (at same pressure) vs carrying another bottle. The average ATA function in the shearwater is a godsend for on the fly understanding of where I stand BO-wise. In most caves I can exit faster than I go in. Some silty spots give me pause just because its harder to gauge how long it'll take to leave. Best I can tell without some sort of independent clock, I usually underestimate my exit speed though.

At a certain point I don't think its possible to carry enough BO for a full on CO2 hit at significant depth and distance. If you're that far down the rabbit hole you're not coming back, your aveoli are collapsing as you suck through the gas and your CO2 isn't gonna get under control. You'll just screwed back there.

 

[PfcAJ]

CCR bailout is an interesting thing. On the one hand, in order for two people to get on the same bailout source means that you've had two CCR failures, which besides being an incredibly rare event, is one hell of a bad day. But on the other hand, the minute you have a CO2 problem you're going to hoove through OC gas like it's going out of style.

There's nothing wrong with bringing plenty of bailout gas. I shoot for 2x what I think is necessary to get me home. My last trip beyond the Henkel involved bringing a stage bottle plus two full 85's jacked to 3600. We never went beyond 4200' either. But I'm a weenie about these things.

My cave strategy is "throw scuba tanks in the water till it's enough. Then add a few more."

I'm thinking about the dive I did to 10k at Chips a few months ago. For folks who don't know, chips is kinda like a siphon version of manatee springs. That kinda flow. But 130ft deep.

Anyways for bailout we each had double 85s, two al80 drive bottles (of which we used about 55cuft during the entire dive) and we were diving over top of I think 10 or 12 safeties. Absurd amount of gas. But it feels great to have resources like that. Totally deletes concerns about gas. It's the best.

 

[rjack321]

My cave strategy is "throw scuba tanks in the water till it's enough. Then add a few more."

I'm thinking about the dive I did to 10k at Chips a few months ago. For folks who don't know, chips is kinda like a siphon version of manatee springs. That kinda flow. But 130ft deep.

Anyways for bailout we each had double 85s, two al80 drive bottles (of which we used about 55cuft during the entire dive) and we were diving over top of I think 10 or 12 safeties. Absurd amount of gas. But it feels great to have resources like that. Totally deletes concerns about gas. It's the best.

Yeah but you actually use up and waste some of that gas on an RB80. My bailouts are just as full at the end as at the start

 

[PfcAJ]

Yeah but you actually use up and waste some of that gas on an RB80. My bailouts are just as full at the end as at the start

Saving a whole 10cuft?

 

[Imbodie]

why do you keep making the assumptions that we should reduce training standards, or that I'm saying that people are too cheap to take full cave? Care to actually read what we wrote? If GUE, arguably the most stringent agency in the world, quite possibly the most expensive, and certainly the most stringent cave training agency has chosen to go with their progression, you are basically telling them that their standards are lax and their students are cheap because they don't follow a training progression that hasn't been changed in 50 years? come on man, if you're going to make accusations like that you better back them up whether you think people aren't going to like it or not, quit being passive aggressive about it and have the balls to voice your opinion about it if you think we are all cheap, lazy, complacent, and wrong which is what you have just accused us of being

I'm with you... .NAUI Cave1, plenty of room to get comfortable before next step.... 2 nav decisions is PLENTY... as long as I'm carrying ALL of my gas... (not staging it) I can dive however long I want....100' depth limit... ok so Little River is a challenge to NOT exceed 100' but thats about it for N Florida (at Cave1 level).... I heard GUE had a time limit on their Cave1?? not sure about GUE, but NAUI I can stay Cave1 forever... but who would want to do that??

 

[Imbodie]

you do also realize that both NAUI and GUE have a REQUIRED intro to tech course prior to getting into cave 1? I.e. you already know how to dive doubles, know how to use a drysuit, know how to kick properly, not like the rest of them where your cavern/intro course is basically intro to tech but done in a cavern zone?

I believe that is at the instructors discretion.... I had 2 different instructors for the Cave1 course.... neither required the intro to tec course... but I was already diving side mount and wasn't going to wear a wet/dry suit no matter how big a fit they threw... when I'm warmer than my instructor diving dry and I'm in shorts/t-shirt its kind of hard for them to argue the point... That being said I had also been a cavern diver for 2+ years before I started the Cave1 course.