Input on our Accident and Incidents Forum... What do you want? How do you want it?

[Ken Kurtis]

Here are a list of questions I want answered.

First of all . . . GREAT DISCUSSION. I am greatly impressed by how many people have posted since this went up relatively recently and how thoughtful and respectful the comments have been. Would that the actual thread comments could be the same . . .

Why do you come here?

1. I've always been interested in diving safety and the cause of accidents and this is a treasure trove of information (and sometimes mis-information).
2. I try to tamp down wrong info and BS, especially when it applies to a SoCal diving accident. I'm a huge believer in open discussions but I'm also a huge believer in clearly labeling what is FACT and what is SPECULATION which is why I will (politely I hope) jump down someone's post when speculation is presented as fact.
3. Since I do expert witness work, if the thread involves a case I'm working on or something similar, it might provide good background or research.
4. FWIW, I look at this forum every day and I know others in the scuba defense arena as well as Coroner and law enforcement monitor it regularly (though likely not daily) as well.

Why do you post accidents and incidents? (This is especially for you, @DandyDon!)

I rarely start a thread and am usually only replying to comments already made. I don't have an issue with Don's frequent thread-starters. If they're not interesting or germane, they're easy enough to ignore.

WHAT IS OUR MISSION? (in your words, please)

Top boldly speculate what no diver has speculated before.
(OK, that's supposed to be a joke.)

I would put the mission statement in two ways:
FOR DIVERS - "To provide divers with information and opinions about an accident in a manner that can help learn and avoid the same situations/mistakes.
FOR NON-DIVERS - "To provide information and opinion in a simple, clear way to help non-divers affected by an accident understand what might have happened, why, and what could or could not have been done."

Are we meeting your and the community's needs?

In general, yes.

What are we missing and why? How can we add that?

I'm hearing this as "changes".
1. Everyone signs a real name to every post. Screen names can stay the same, but we should know that "Bubbles95" is an experienced instructor in Louisiana and that "Dives-All-Day16" just got certified last week. Doesn't meant they can't each express an opinion but it's helpful when reading what they say to have some perspective on the BG from whence it comes.
2. Perhaps limit the number of posts/day/thread. Hard to monitor perhaps and I know I'm certainly guilty of getting sucked into a meaningless back-and-forth that serves no real purpose.
3. Write your comments as if you'll only get one chance and as if they'll be read by someone who hasn't necessarily read every word of every other post in the thread. In other words, be extremely clear. (That's why a lot of mine are wordy. I want to make sure it's absolutely clear what I'm saying and why.)

What needs to be eliminated and why?

Unlabeled speculation and wild-ass guesses. Just call it what it is. Also, unsourced information. "I heard that" . . . from whom and why is this likely to be true or accurate?

How can we be more respectful to friends and survivors?

Before you hit POST REPLY, put yourself in their shoes and ask how you'd feel about reading the words you're about to share if it was your loved one who was dead? Also, write your post but then walk away from the computer before you hit POST REPLY. Think about it for a while. THEN post it.

Can we be more respectful without harming our mission?

Yes.

Currently, we don't allow names to be used unless released publicly first. Is this fair for the family? Is it fair for us? Is a change needed?

Yes, yes, no. I've been involved in notification before. You definitely don't want to be the one who tells someone their friend/partner/relative is dead. Drains you emotionally. And the reality is that, unless it's someone we who post or lurk here regularly know (like when it was Lynne), what difference does the name make? It's likely not someone who know and knowing the name or not doesn't change the facts of the accident.

Some hate SB because we have the temerity to discuss the undiscussible.

I think the greatest disservice we, as an industry, do to ourselves is NOT to have these kinds of discussions. makes it look like we're trying to hide something to those already suspicious of us, and holds back valuable info from others who could use it to improve their own diving habits.

Thanks again for the great responses all the way around. Keep it up!!!!

- Ken

 

[Bubblesong]

I would like to keep the system as it is, with the addition of an opt out to stop seeing posts from A&I. Perhaps there is an arc to people reading about these accidents, 1. reading to learn to avoid dangerous situations, 2. Getting more involved through offering ideas and discussion, 3. Tapering off as the individual starts to see repeating patterns of accidents,
And at a point where there just seems to be nothing more to learn, because the causation is depressingly repetitive, that individual may choose to opt out.

 

[oya]

And at a point where there just seems to be nothing more to learn, because the causation is depressingly repetitive, that individual may choose to opt out.

Now here's an interesting point.

This is exactly why it seems so many of the actual experts do check out. Because they have personally seen the same accidents, perhaps many times personally.

So how do we, as a community, forge the results of appropriate accident analysis (as opposed to the wild, useless speculation which, I am sorry to say, I see here just as often as anything useful) into a tool to prevent the same dumb errors?

 

[Diving Dubai]

I'll put two points up only for the moment in addition to agreeing it's an opt in.

1. I know BSAC isn't US, but they do provide a decent report every year giving a list of the incidents with as much detail as possible. they also summarise the years' record against other years. They are well worth a read. when they come out I post a link, but not sure how many people bother. It's a shame you have this info out there to learn from and it's not used. So perhaps a way to incorporate these reports?

2. Near Misses, I think is possibly more important in some way, people are putting you their incident for others to learn from with the risk/ fear that they might be given a hard time from others reactions - although the reality is people are normally respectful. I'd like it to be more prominent rather than a sub forum. Maybe AI is a Sub forum of Near misses?

 

[KevinNM]

Ain't that the truth. I've heard that analogy from critics twice today. When I pointed out that many fatal car crashes ARE covered by the media, in gory detail and with all sorts of speculation, they insisted I was wrong.

Indeed. We don't want this: 'You can never unsee it': Crash photos shared on Facebook horrify loved ones And so far we haven't done anything like that as far as I know.

I found the recent Eagle's Nest disaster to be pretty well conducted once the basic data on page 9 was posted, before that is was obviously annoying the hell out of the few members here who actually had first hand information on the accident, were not allowed to discuss it yet and felt badgered. The discussion post page 9 was very interesting and I think I learned a lot from that, even without all the relevant data (Things like the site photos and video that hasn't been released by LE).

 

[oya]

Another point I notice hasn't been yet made in 5 pages:
Scuba Diving Accident Reports, Case Summaries, Incidents, Prevention | DAN

If you are actually a party to an accident/incident/near-miss then it would behoove the entire industry to contribute to this resource.

It is searchable. It is objective. It is anonymous. It is professionally curated. It could be a wildly useful tool.

I like Scubaboard, I really do. I think it's a valuable resource to the entire community in a great many ways. But I really don't like when something bad happens and people with little training or experience in an area start to imagine what they would have done differently so that they would have been OK. Call it a pet peeve.

 

[kelemvor]

Another point I notice hasn't been yet made in 5 pages:
Scuba Diving Accident Reports, Case Summaries, Incidents, Prevention | DAN

If you are actually a party to an accident/incident/near-miss then it would behoove the entire industry to contribute to this resource.

It is searchable. It is objective. It is anonymous. It is professionally curated. It could be a wildly useful tool.

I like Scubaboard, I really do. I think it's a valuable resource to the entire community in a great many ways. But I really don't like when something bad happens and people with little training or experience in an area start to imagine what they would have done differently so that they would have been OK. Call it a pet peeve.

I don't see any option to search or otherwise view the reports - only summaries we're told are based on the reports. Kindly guide me to the search feature that I'm missing.

 

[oya]

I don't see any option to search or otherwise view the reports - only summaries we're told are based on the reports. Kindly guide me to the search feature that I'm missing.

OK, well, it WAS searchable.

Until that get replaced, read all of these: Divers Alert Network, Case Summaries

There's probably something interesting in there.

There's also several years of the increasingly accurately called "Annual Report:" Divers Alert Network

 

[kelemvor]

IUCRR also has some data. It's very limited though, with only two incidents logged in 2015 and zero this year. Incident List - IUCRR

Given that there have been several technical accidents/fatalities since then, I assume it's now defunct.

 

[KevinNM]

IUCRR also has some data. It's very limited though, with only two incidents logged in 2015 and zero this year. Incident List - IUCRR

Given that there have been several technical accidents/fatalities since then, I assume it's now defunct.

I get the impression that it's a sore point in the community. Nobody is really happy about the current state, but there are reasons why it is how it is.