Input on our Accident and Incidents Forum... What do you want? How do you want it?

[The Chairman]

One suggestion I have for DD is for him to also post his "opinion" of the incident.

Nah... he's fine just as he is. It was good to hear why he does it. I'm cool with @DandyDon's role here.

 

[KeithG]

Nah... he's fine just as he is. It was good to hear why he does it. I'm cool with @DandyDon's role here.

I am as well. I just want him to do more work for me...

 

[KeithG]

I am as well. I just want him to do more work for me...

I claim it's DD's fault that I know about CO2 analyzers and PLBs. Thank you Don & SB. Not that I own any of these fancy gadgets...yet. But I do feel that I understand when they would be appropriate. I would not hesitate to purchase them when required. My divebuddy (not a SB reader) is totally unaware of these devices. What percentage of the dive population is also unaware?

A recent A&I thread seems to be the poster child for having a PLB on every diver in certain conditions.

 

[DandyDon]

One suggestion I have for DD is for him to also post his "opinion" of the incident. My current belief is that he reacts to googler alerts and then posts with little or no input from his perspective as the "information finder" (he does avoid the issue of poster bias), We are often left to read the source info and infer our own conclusions.

Oh, sometimes I do. Usually tho, with what info is available for me to post - it's more of an opening for discussion, and even more so - hoping that someone with local knowledge but didn't want to be the first to post will add. Much of the time, I'm not qualified to offer an opinion, but there are a few risks that are too common in their deadly outcomes that I will remark...

• Body recovered with weights intact. From my reading here I have adopted a drill for the first dive of every trip to reach and simulate ditching. It's often clumsy at first, but I want that much practice to avoid losing it in a panic.
  
• Bad gas possibilities. I only know of one study done by an accredited lab, and it found that 97% of samples passed - but a 3% carbon monoxide failure rate is enough to get me to test every tank. Since then, testing requirements were dropped, and even before not enforced - so the risk may well be higher. All too often an accident gives hints that this could be the problem, but we're left to wonder if the local authorities know enough to test, and if they have the equipment?
• Drifting & lost. I carry a PLB in my car anytime I leave the house, then in my pack when I hike, etc - for less than 50¢/week - see Ocean Signal RescueME PLB1 CHEAP...!!. For $100 more I added a dive canister and wear it on every dive.

Sometimes I read the related post content and then go "just a snorkerler". If I knew ahead of time...

I try to avoid those, but many news stories aren't clear. Still, there are some similarities.

I claim it may be more worthwile for us lazy people if the original poster "curated" the thread a bit more?

Fortunately, severe accidents are rare enough to not support such.

I claim it's DD's fault that I know about CO2

Not quite. CO2 is not a major risk in diving, while CO is. But you're still diving on hope huh...?

 

[C Dub]

The forum is fine as is. My only concern is for families of the deceased - I like the idea of a big pop up window for unregistered users and registered users with less than a certain number of posts, that warns family they probably don't want to read this forum....

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I do not need names to learn. Names do allow / help additional external research (which I do not do). I would be happy if names were excluded. Not naming names may make it harder for readers / mods to detect BS. But I think SB already has a fairly good BS detector.

Bold added I guess that depends on what a person considers fairly good! IMHO some people are so good at claiming expert qualifications that they manage to convince themselves and others when close examination (if you are able to perform it) reveals more of Legend in their own Minds. These people develop followers which adds to their unjustified status. It seems that now days if a person is willing to keep shouting something from the rooftops... or posting it online long enough.. people hear it so often they accept it as fact. This fact has ruined reputations, elevated people who didn't deserve it and some will say the last US election is proof of this.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

The forum is fine as is. My only concern is for families of the deceased - I like the idea of a big pop up window for unregistered users and registered users with less than a certain number of posts, that warns family they probably don't want to read this forum....

I appreciate your concern and I think the pop up is a good idea. I have been told all my life I have an overdeveloped protective instinct I have learned to damper it down a bit since I joined SB and that is one of the many benefits I have gotten from being a member of this community.

Whatever we do... we need to make sure that posters don't take a position that... Well they were warned so it's their problem if they don't like what I post or how I post it.

The problem is that we need information from the dive buddies, witnesses and family to gain the most from these events. Some loved ones are better able to cope with what they read. I remember Marcia's daughter telling me. "I know we aren't supposed to read that thread but I have been. I don't think the people are actually posting about what really happened to Mom. They are posting stuff that doesn't apply but I guess that is ok because they are learning from it!" Not an exact quote of course but very close. I felt attacked on a number of occasions by some rather insensitive and I still feel judgmental posts but I know some of it was my state at the time.

The level of reaction to posts is IMHO relative to how close the person was to the reader. I remember in Lynn's thread when offense was taken, I had read the post and didn't think it was out of line.. just posted a Mod's caution and another Mod who was closer was deeply upset and removed it. I suspect had it been a "normal A&I" thread it might have been left. I am not criticizing the Moderation in that thread (I did some of it) just using that example. As Mods we will never "get it right" we will always be seen as heavy handed or not moderating enough.... goes with the turf and more so in A&I. We do our best and take the heat as needed. IMHO there isn't a single Mod who isn't working out of dedication to the community and a desire to help it be the best it can be for everyone.

I find the admonishments of posters saying "I demand wild ***** speculation" if I die diving etc disingenuous. If they are dead it is their family and loved ones who are hurting. No matter if they said "Don't sue"... that is going to be a decision the loved ones make while in emotional and possibly financial pain.

I admit to the memory of what happened to Gabe Watson instilling fear in me when we were the dive buddies! Fortunately her family was/is wonderful but I can't tell you how terrifying it was going to meet with them the first time after the accident not knowing what we were walking into!

 

[beester]

• Why do you come here? to hopefully learn
• Why do you post accidents and incidents? (This is especially for you, @DandyDon!) I will only post about incidents and accidents that I have witnessed myself. I will do so (if it's not about me) by keeping the victim anonymous. I post because there is lots to learn from the planning and decision making process during and BEFORE an incident/accident.
• WHAT IS OUR MISSION? To provide meaningful, objective proven data on incidents. To have people with experience comment on this data and provide analysis on the processes that resulted in the incident/accident and by doing so help the dive community to hopefully avoid or lessen further incidents/accidents.
  
• Are we meeting your and the community's needs? Not fully
• What are we missing and why? We are missing focus on incidents instead of deadly accidents. Learning from deadly accidents is always very difficult because the main actors are no longer here. Even if there is a surviving buddy, lack of underwater communication makes it very hard to "guestimate" the decision making process and find a root cause. There are very little examples of deadly accidents that have been well analysed (the plura accident being a very detailed exception to the norm). On the other hand with incidents the primary actors are still alive and can give first hand information on what happened, how they perceived it, what in their mind should have been changed, what decisions the made before and during the incident. Only with the collaboration of the victims (alive) can we get a broad picture and maybe get some meaningful results. However to convince people that they can come forward with their experiences we need a "just culture". Victims do need to feel that their honest reports and experiences are handled with care. That they are not overly criticised, and that what is examined is not them as divers but the process, decision tree, etc.
• How can we add that? Difficult to say
• What needs to be eliminated and why? Incident reports with deadly victims. There is nothing to be gained from analysing deadly incidents, because we lack useful firsthand information (most of it is squeewed by media in any case).
• How can we be more respectful to friends and survivors? By not analyizing deadly accidents.
• Can we be more respectful without harming our mission? Yes
• Currently, we don't allow names to be used unless released publicly first. Is this fair for the family? Is it fair for us? Is a change needed? No opinion

 

[Bennno]

Incident reports with deadly victims. There is nothing to be gained from analysing deadly incidents, because we lack useful firsthand information (most of it is squeewed by media in any case).

Nothing to be gained? A LOT can be gained from analysing deadly accidents!
I ONLY learned about CO poisening due to an deadly accident in Mexico, just to name one example. It also helps people not to forgett that diving can be dangerous.

Look at 'Blueprint' by Sheck Exley. Deadly accindents people have learnd a lot from and it has safed lifes as we can learn from other peoples mistakes.
There're too many accidents swept under the rug as it is.

There are very little examples of deadly accidents that have been well analysed (the plura accident being a very detailed exception to the norm).

This is a very bad example, IMHO. I watched to movie and I read all I can could find about it. Where is the accident analysis? I haven't seen it. They certainly don't talk about it in the movie.

 

[The Chairman]

I was forwarded a note from someone who does accident analysis... only they've stopped calling them "accidents". The whole point of the note was to point out that the word "accident" trivializes the incident as something out of our control. Consequently, I've asked my Google Guru, @sphyon, to assess the impact a change of name would have on the forum. Maybe we need to call it something like "Scuba Incidents", "Scuba Incidents and Injuries" or even "Scuba Incidents, injuries and deaths". I'm sure I would still be keeping "accidents" as a Key Word for the forum. Comments?