500 psi for two divers?

[lowviz]

Tatiana, you came and asked a very good question, and one which your open water class did not prepare you to answer, as most open water classes do not. ...//... Pick a rule of thumb for gas reserves -- HERE is a cheat sheet that uses a standard PADI ascent as a model -- and agree with your buddy that you will start your ascent at that point. Stick to your guns! ...
You are getting harsh answers because your responses worry us. ... We are trying to encourage you to step up and become a strong and independent diver. ...

Fabulous thread, lurking forever on it, suffer me just one post. TSandM, that is just plain hysterical. See, I would have quoted something from Lamont. GUE, ever heard of them?

But yes, Peter's sheet is most appropriate in this case. An example of world class restraint from the Archangel of Conversion...

I mean Ive seen people diving at resorts who went to open sea, dive in the same places as I did and werent taking part in any course. I dont think those people knew how to plan a dive ?

Most likely, they don't. Was just talking to an instructor at my LDS, he mentioned someone who said that they never bother looking at the part of their dive computer's screen that always says 999.

... I know you are all care about other divers but its too soon for me to think im able to plan dives just because i have the OW when 2 months ago i didnt even know i was going to ever try diving ... its lots of info to take guys ! give me a break

Information overload. So true.

Start by focusing on what is most important: Will I have enough air to breathe throughout my dive and how do I stay out of deco? Your first answers to these questions will be crude and open to debate. As you progress your answers to these same two questions will improve.

... but obviously, thanks to all , im already working on this

Excellent.

... Hey, I had over 100 dives (and AOW) before I ever seriously planned and led a dive in a situation I was unfamiliar with. All dives prior to that had been in known water, in known situations, or with a DM. After that first one, they've gotten a lot easier! Just get some experience, take it easy, you'll do fine.

Yes.

... could have been my fault , i just was focused on breathing and amazed at everything i saw, shouting "oh my god, look at that" with the regulator in my mouth !! ...

... I get the feeling that you might be overly complicating "planning a dive". It does not take very much to do, and requires but a little conscious effort to be aware of your surroundings. .

Tatiana, it seems clear that you are a thinking diver which is great! Unfortunately, many diver's education is lacking. The smart ones like you realize that you are not comfortable and that their is a lot more to learn and skills to improve. ...//... and I wish you a lifetime of fun in the underwater world!

It should still be fun while you are learning this.

...//... Learn your gas consumption rules, it will do you a world of benefit. ...

Maybe work on this first.

...//... All the certification means is that on a certain day the person did certain things to a certain level of competence. As time goes on, that competence might decay, or might increase. ...

Yep.

 

[TSandM]

An example of world class restraint from the Archangel of Conversion...

Baby steps, lowviz, baby steps . . .

 

[lowviz]

another lost soul...

---------- Post added August 23rd, 2014 at 12:05 AM ----------

I'm telling Peter that you changed the link!

 

[boulderjohn]

PADI does have those rules, it does not authorize divers to dive beyond 60ft. IF those divers choose to go outside of those limits they are making a conscious decision to dive outside of their certification level. PADI will not revoke their card obviously, but they will interfere if they find out a PADI dive operation is allowing OW divers to dive beyond 60 feet without proper training because of the legal action.

Call PADI's legal department and ask them. They have one of the best legal teams in the world, and they will defend their dive professionals tooth and nail until the bitter end because they have to. If a PADI dive center operates a charter where the depth of the dive is beyond 18m and they allow a PADI OW diver on that dive, that diver dies and their family sues the dive operation the PADI lawyers will likely not defend that dive operation because they allowed a diver on that charter where they had no business being.

This is pure falsehood.

Everything Tursiops wrote before that is correct. The standards are for training purposes only. Neither PADI nor any other agency has the authority to control what a diver does outside of training.

Pretty much every dive operation in the world with a PADI affiliation takes OW divers below 18 m/ 60 feet. The closest PADI has ever done that I know of about that is this past year in Belize. There have been a couple of threads about it, and it would do you good to read it. IN Belize, dive operations, including PADI dive operations, routinely take brand new OW divers to the Blue Hole--about 130 feet. It was really getting out of hand, and PADI wrote a plea in which it asked them to establish local standards to stop this. That letter was quoted in its entirety in the thread. In it, PADI clearly says that its depth standards are only for training dives, but it hopes they will recognize the spirit of that recommendation and use it to guide a policy. Belize has indeed come up with a draft policy that recommends that operators establish at least AOW as a minimum requirement for diving the Blue Hole.

Note that PADI clearly said it had no authority to do anything on its own. It can only govern what happens when its instructors run classes.

 

[tbone1004]

so if that is true, why do they publish it as dive limits not during your training you will be limited to x depth? If you want to dive to y depth, please take this course? That's how NAUI does it, training depth limits are x depth, your recreational limits are y depth, but please consider limiting your depth to z. Also, why do charters around here all require AOW to take you below 60 feet regardless of the agency you're certified with? It's a CYOA policy because PADI has published the training limits. I'm calling one of their CD's on Monday and asking him about it because I know all of the shops on the coast hold hard and fast to those depth rules. The resorts might not, but stateside I believe it is a very different story. Like I said, if you want to dive on your own, that's fine, but I don't know any dive pros that would take a PADI OW diver below 60ft because of insurance risks.

 

[tursiops]

tbone, here is what PADI actually says in their current OW manual. Note the word "recommended" in the first sentence, and "for you as a newly certified PADI Open Water Diver." Also note the last sentence.

AOW is often required for dives below 60 feet because that way the operator knows you have been *trained* to at least that depth.

 

[boulderjohn]

Also, why do charters around here all require AOW to take you below 60 feet regardless of the agency you're certified with?

That is their decision--no one is requiring them to do that, unless there is a local regulation such as Belize is considering.

You have a local experience that differs from what goes on elsewhere in the world. Some of the operators in the Key Largo area require AOW to dive the Spiegel Grove. That is to my knowledge the only recreational dive I have done anywhere in the world with such a requirement--and I have dived in a lot of places. If you are an OW diver in Cozumel and want to stay above 60 feet on your first dive, you will need to make special arrangements. I do a lot of diving in south Florida, just above Fort Lauderdale. By staying on the far west side of the reef on drift dives, you can stay above 60 feet. Most diving, however, does a deeper wreck dive followed by the shallower reef dive. Every single operator does this. If any operator were to make a rule forbidding OW divers to do those dives, they would be out of business in no time. If PADI or any agency would tell an operator that they must keep all their OW divers above 60 feet or be dropped by the agency, those operators would all shrug their shoulders and switch to an agency that allows them to stay in business. That would put PADI out of business pretty quickly.

---------- Post added August 23rd, 2014 at 10:44 AM ----------

I am having a bad feeling about the direction of this discussion, and I will tell you why.

About a year or so ago we had similar discussions related to PADI standards. A couple of people kept voicing their interpretations of the standards, interpretations that seemed to contradict the English language as I know it. I contacted representatives of PADI headquarters with direct questions and got clear and unambiguous replies that showed they were wrong. Another PADI instructor quoted from a statement from PADI's CEO and President, a statement that was required reading for all instructors, that clearly showed they were wrong. We cited an article in the PADI professional journal that clearly showed they were wrong.

How did they respond?

They said that when you write to PADI headquarters with a question about PADI policy, the reply you get will only be the opinion of that individual and will not necessarily reflect actual PADI policy. That person's opinion is no more valid than anyone else's, and if you do what the response says, you may be violating standards.

They said that when the CEO and President of PADI publishes a statement that is required reading for all instructors, it is just his opinion, and his opinion is not more valid than anyone else's. If you do what the President and CEO says to do in the required reading for instructors, you could be violating standards and be expelled.

They said that when PADI publishes an article in their professional journal promoting an instructional practice, it is just the opinion of the author of the article, the practice being promoted may actually be against PADI policy, and anyone who uses it can be expelled from PADI for using those practices.​

If that is the road we are going down, I'm out of here.

 

[tbone1004]

then I'll back off, but the words "you were trained to a maximum depth of 60ft ... with additional training beyond Open Water Diver course the maximum depth for recreational diving is ...130ft". That is enough for me to not risk a lawsuit by allowing an OW Diver to dive under my supervision beyond 60ft. Does that mean divers are restricted to those limits? Of course not, no one can stop a driver from driving without a license, but I won't get in the car with one. I'd much rather have that diver have an AOW cert if we're going beyond 60ft just to CMOA. 30 years ago it would have been a very different story but with everyone trying to sue everyone else over frivolous bs it's not worth the risk which is still very real. Hell, I was denied on one charter here because my technical cave card didn't register with idiots that I was trained in O2 decompression, said I needed a "decompression card". That's a CYOA policy for them, and while they're morons for not understanding that full cave requires O2 decompression, I can't really fault them for not wanting to take the risk. I won't dive with that charter again because I'm not paying for another course that I don't need, I can't fault them.

 

[fire_diver]

If that is the road we are going down, I'm out of here.

Welcome to the world lawyer-speak CYA. Do what we say, but what we say isn't binding and doing what we say may get you in trouble. You are only safe doing what we say when it is intentionally confused by our lawyers first so that we can deny responsibility regardless of how you THINK it reads.

 

[redacted]

then I'll back off, but the words "you were trained to a maximum depth of 60ft ... with additional training beyond Open Water Diver course the maximum depth for recreational diving is ...130ft". That is enough for me to not risk a lawsuit by allowing an OW Diver to dive under my supervision beyond 60ft. Does that mean divers are restricted to those limits? Of course not, no one can stop a driver from driving without a license, but I won't get in the car with one. I'd much rather have that diver have an AOW cert if we're going beyond 60ft just to CMOA. 30 years ago it would have been a very different story but with everyone trying to sue everyone else over frivolous bs it's not worth the risk which is still very real. Hell, I was denied on one charter here because my technical cave card didn't register with idiots that I was trained in O2 decompression, said I needed a "decompression card". That's a CYOA policy for them, and while they're morons for not understanding that full cave requires O2 decompression, I can't really fault them for not wanting to take the risk. I won't dive with that charter again because I'm not paying for another course that I don't need, I can't fault them.

Why did you leave out the rest of the words ("or shallower" and "experience") from your quote? Was it because they undermined your case?

Exactly how do you intend to disallow a diver under your supervision from going beyond 60 ft? I hope it will not involve an assault.