500 psi for two divers?

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Hi ,

the situation is ... two divers, max of 18 m, one diver has a problem with regulator or no air left, etc . They share one tank to surface. if the other has diver s tank is 500 psi, with slow , controlled breathing , is that enough to do safety stop and ascend for both of them?

i just cant figure out how long 500 psi would last and i think is useful to know in case i get to that situation.

thanks !

Hi TatianaSilva,

Sorry I'm late to joining this thread. Your question is a good one. I'm dazzled by the 99 responses. To summarize, you're at 60 feet with 500 psi (I'll assume an AL80 with 12.9 cu ft of gas) and you and a buddy, without air, must make an ascent to the surface. First of all, you probably should have started your ascent before you got down to 500 psi. On a no deco dive you have free access to the surface without a safety stop. For the two of you to make a conservative ascent at 30 ft/min at a combined SRMV of 2 cu ft/min would require only 7.6 cu ft of gas, significanly less than you have available. Personally, I do not find this ourrageous though I agree that your gas planning leaves something to be desired. You could use the extra gas for a partial SS, I would. Learn your gas consumption rules, it will do you a world of benefit. Plan your dives, dive your plans.

Good diving,

Craig
 
http://elearning.padi.com/company0/tools/RDP InsforUseMet.pdf

Because PADI says so themselves? Page 7, #10 in the Recreational Dive Planner
Limit your maximum depth to your training and
experience level. As an Open Water Diver, limit
your dives to a maximum depth of 18 metres.


Translates to, if I'm a boat captain and someone with a PADI Open Water Diver comes on my boat and the bottom is 21m, if something happens, you bet your ass lawyers are coming back to the dive operator asking why an unqualified diver was allowed on that charter.

Suffice to say that PADI's suggestions for using the RDP are not the same thing as the limits tied to your OW card. Is there some ambulance-chaser out there who'd try what you're suggesting? Probably. But they wouldn't get very far if their only point was that, regardless of other experience, the diver held no cert higher than OW but was doing a NDL dive with a planned depth of 130' or shallower.
 
if you look at other agencies you see that their requirements for basic OW are a lot greater than PADI
Also not remotely true. PADI is part of the RSTC, which is MOST of the agencies, and their requirements for basic OW are essentially the same.

tbone confuses what he'd like to be true with what really is true, me thinks :)


Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk
 
The RSTC is not most of the agencies. It's a few of them. And they like to keep it that way. Other agencies do have more stringent requirements. Not to mention that some of the RSTC members ignore the guidelines when it's suits their bottom line to do so.
 
The RSTC is not most of the agencies. It's a few of them. And they like to keep it that way. Other agencies do have more stringent requirements. Not to mention that some of the RSTC members ignore the guidelines when it's suits their bottom line to do so.

But do ANY of them explicitly forbid OW divers from diving beyond 60, or any depth less than 130ft?
 
No they can't. They can only dictate max depths in training. Once your done if you want to go to 300 feet you can and no one is going to be able to do anything to you. Except maybe the undertaker.
 
No they can't. They can only dictate max depths in training. Once your done if you want to go to 300 feet you can and no one is going to be able to do anything to you. Except maybe the undertaker.

And that was the point.
 
RSTC only accounts for half of the active divers out there, and in the US is essentially PADI, SDI, and SSI. So, NAUI, NASE, GUE, IANTD, BSAC, UTD, to start.

RSTC does have mostly equal standards for their OW programs, that's why they're part of it. They set minimum standards and by golly to they stick to them. The minimum skills list for the above non RSTC agencies are in fact quite a bit more involved than the RSTC standards, and in my opinion, the RSTC standards barely qualify a diver to get into a pool, which now means they rely on DM's and Instructors to babysit them in the water, whether the standards say they are qualified or not, the fact is the majority of PADI OW Divers are not qualified to do true open water dives without supervision right out of the gate.

Also wouldn't take an ambulance chaser, PADI clearly outlines that the divers are qualified to a max depth of 18m. You allow divers to dive beyond those limits, and eat it, no lawyer can save you. IANTD says 21m for their divers, and 30m with supervision, same rules go for that regarding lawyers. Look at the Wes Skiles case that is still ongoing, a few of us know the real reason Terri brought the lawsuit on, but even still, the lawyers had the damn O2 sensor manufacturers on the list. IF it came to something like that, your PADI insurance would not send in their truly spectacular team of lawyers *which is a fact, the PADI legal team is incredible, though they have to be....* to save you because you were negligent by allowing a diver to dive beyond their training limits while under your supervision.

fire_diver, that point is only valid if you are diving in open water without any commercial involvement. If you're on your own personal boat do what you want, but if you're on a charter it is the captain and any dive professionals they have on boards responsibility to make sure you aren't diving beyond your limits and it is their butt on the line if you exceed those limits and get hurt.
 
tbone, you make some interesting points, but I wonder about your statistics and your facts; you are entitled to your own opinons, but not your own facts!

For example, in the US there are five agencies that are members of the RSTC, not three, and globally (WRSTC) there are 10. Half the divers? Where does this come from?

Your relentless denigration of PADI and its OW divers is tiresome, even though I'm sure in your experience you are accurate. In my experience, you are not.

Your concern about litigation and PADI coverage is misplaced; you have confused a certified diver who is diving off a boat with a diver who is under instruction in a PADI course. For the latter, the training limits for that instructional level are sacrosanct. For the former, PADI is not involved. Dive Professionals on the boat are not PADI employees, they are the boat's or a dive shop's employees, or are independent. PADI is only involved if there is a PADI class being taught.

You confuse being trained with being qualified, and go on to say you are not even allowed to go deeper than 60 ft, or whatever. In fact, the training limits are recommendations, not mandates, and one can go deeper if they want. A boat (or resort or country) may have its own rules, but those are not PADI rules.

You say, "negligent by allowing a diver to dive beyond their training limits while under your supervision." BS. This only even come close to factual if the dive is while under instruction. "Supervision" has many more facets than being an instructor of a PADI class.

Finally, you seem to view certification as some sort of license, whose rules-of-engagement bind you. Nonsense. All the certification means is that on a certain day the person did certain things to a certain level of competence. As time goes on, that competence might decay, or might increase. No way to know.

Other than that, it was an interesting post.
 
I know there are 5, but how many people have actually heard of IDEA and PDIC? Hence the essentially PADI, SSI, SDI.

50% comes from the WRSTC website mission statement.

"The WRSTC's membership is restricted to national or regional councils comprised of the individual training organizations who collectively represent at least 50% of the annual diver certifications in the Member Council’s country or region."

PADI does have those rules, it does not authorize divers to dive beyond 60ft. IF those divers choose to go outside of those limits they are making a conscious decision to dive outside of their certification level. PADI will not revoke their card obviously, but they will interfere if they find out a PADI dive operation is allowing OW divers to dive beyond 60 feet without proper training because of the legal action.

Call PADI's legal department and ask them. They have one of the best legal teams in the world, and they will defend their dive professionals tooth and nail until the bitter end because they have to. If a PADI dive center operates a charter where the depth of the dive is beyond 18m and they allow a PADI OW diver on that dive, that diver dies and their family sues the dive operation the PADI lawyers will likely not defend that dive operation because they allowed a diver on that charter where they had no business being. This is why charters will require AOW certification or whatever certification is required for that dive, it is strictly for lawsuit mitigation. The cert requirements are generally based off of PADI's published training limits. You are not trained to dive beyond 18m, the dive is 20m dive, you need AOW, no ifs ands or buts, it's a CYOA policy for the operator. This is why Peacock requires cave divers to display their cave cards on their windshields while they're diving, the list goes on. The C-cards are there to not only train divers but to also protect the agencies and dive operators from legal action in our sue happy country.

The ideal situation is for the OW courses to take more than 4 days because you can't learn how to dive properly in that amount of time, it just isn't possible, people are lazy, and want instant gratification. Because of this, PADI has broken down their courses into very small chunks with very strict restrictions, if you read. Being trained should mean being qualified, if you aren't qualified you shouldn't have been certified, unfortunately that cuts into the business models for the dive shops and they can't afford not to certify people, so PADI pumps out thousands of new divers every year the VAST majority of whom are completely incompetent and really have no business diving on their own. If you read the RDP it explains all of said restrictions. You are capable of making the decision to go beyond your training limits, that is your decision, but if a diving professional allows you to go beyond those limits while you are under their supervision, they are at risk of a major lawsuit and actually at risk of PADI removing their license which is detrimental for a business.

The lines blur when you look at where and how most OW divers dive. They typically dive off of boats, usually run by a PADI Dive Center, always babysat by a PADI Dive Master *which is a bloody joke btw, their decision to make DM the lowest of the professional certs is idiotic, NAUI has it right with AI then DM where at least with AI first you are under an instructor the whole time, but that's another discussion*, and then they come back. They might do this for maybe 2-4 dives/year, hardly a qualified diver. If that is the situation then the "guidelines" now becomes hard and fast rules because the dive centers can't afford a lawsuit.

If those divers now start doing shore dives, quarries, own their own boat etc then they are diving under the original intent of the certification and are now diving without supervision, problem here is most of the divers aren't doing that and you run into the OP's situations where she did not have the proper training to fully understand the concepts of how and why these rules came to be. Her instructor told her 500psi, do you really think her instructor knows and understands why 500psi is a guideline? If he did, don't you think he would have said, at 18m deep, using an AL80, a good approximation is 500psi, but that does not hold true for all situations and we should sit and discuss how that number came to be? How can a certified diver not figure out what 500psi means and translate that into how long it should last? That is a MAJOR problem, 100% a life threatening problem if you don't understand how to do that. She was told that 500psi is approximately 15 minutes, what happens if a diver treats that as gospel, is diving an AL63 where they now have 20% less gas than they thought. Now that 15 minutes becomes 12 minutes but "oh I had 500 psi, so it must be 15 minutes". That lack of thinking has caused near fatalities on multiple occasions and will continue to do so because that is not the sign of a certified diver, that diver should have gotten the "scuba diver" cert where they are restricted to diving with a professional because they are not safe to dive on their own. Whether there have been fatalities due to it or not, the cold hard fact is that if you don't understand the concepts of how to safely execute a dive with proper gas planning you shouldn't be diving unsupervised. PADI can't afford to take that approach because they would lose their 40% market share or whatever ridiculous number they have and they would have lowered profits due to less divers taking the course, which then cuts into their enormous and excessive dive shop networks profits and the industry giant collapses. They'd end up like GUE where despite the fact that they put out vastly superior divers, almost no one who isn't already certified or who knows a technical diver has ever heard of them. Hell, most shops have no idea what GUE is. I'm not a GUE diver, and don't agree with a lot of what they do/say but you can't argue with the fact that their divers are leaps and bounds ahead of any PADI OW diver coming right out of class.
 

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