80/80 WWW contemplates BP/W; foolishly requests advice

[DiverAnderson]

Hi Lairdb,

I've been thinking about exactly the same stuff you have lately. Stephen Ash imbedded a link to our conversation and I hope you read over it. There are a couple things I'd like to add as well.

1) I just dove a Halcyon SS BP and 36# wings and the ACB 30 system today in Carmel (pretty much Monterey). My thoughts were that the ACB system was too bulky and difficult to load. I wore 9lbs in a pocket rated for 15lbs and even with help the pockets didn't slide all the way in. You'd have to load it and then don the equipment which I find annoying, especially for such an expensive system.

2) Leisurepro sells a deluxe Diverite harness for peanuts. It is probably comfortable and has a chest strap and padded sholder straps. I'm not buying it. Why? Not only is the standard harness completely comfortable and sufficient, I like it because it is simple. A new dive buddy can look at me and immediately tell what is going on. Is a strap twisted? How is my light attached? He knows quicker with a simpler system.

3) I have used a Zeagle Ranger for about four years now. It has too much unnecessary lift, the tank wobbles around and air gets trapped in the large air bladder. I thought about going to a Scubapro Knighthawk which is a freaking awesome BC (the best, IMHO) but when I dove it, it wasn't noticeably different from my Ranger. The Halcyon was. It was lighter out of the water, the tank was stable against my back, the air didn't slosh around and the setup was simple and clean.

I still have a lot of questions, many of which center around weighting issues. Like you, I want a system that works in two distinct climates. I wear either a 2mm shortie or 7mm with vest and hood so my bouyance varies considerably. I found a Halcyon 27# to be a good compromise, enough for cold water aluminum 80s. I don't feel I need ditchable weight in tropical climates so I think a 9# BP would be enough there and when I go cold I will add a p-weight or possibly a weighted STA, I haven't decided. I will retain ditchable weight because cold water can get hairy and keeping your bouyancy options open is a great idea.

Fred T makes custom p-weights bit maybe Scott Koplin does too, The are both great guys and I will probably buy a plate, weights and harness from one of them. Fred T sent me some great literature too, message me with your email address and I'll forward it along.

 

[Albion]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Most of the bp/wing divers couldn't care less about what sort of gear you dive with.
.

I'm not accusing you SeaJay, I have read some of your threads explaining your choice, but i think that there are a lot of B/P users on this forum who do care what sort of gear others dive with, as every time there is a request for advice on what type of BC to get, most answers come back with "get a B/P Wing". It is quite good sport watching how many repplies will be posted before the suggestion comes in.

question I'm a sixteen year old girl who likes wearing pink and dives once a year, what type of BCD should i get.

Reponse, Are you using twin steel 120's what sort of exposure protection, i would recomend a B/P wing etc etc.

Seriously there are a lot of good reasons for a harness setup, but they do not always suit everyone. Buckles do have a place.

For instance I have been on many dives where diving in strong currents they have used zodiacs or small wooden outriggers to pick up the divers, can you really climb into a zodiac with your gear on, i'd like to see that one (i get enough complaints for handing up my gear with weights in it, let alone having to drag a fully geared diver into the boat). Next ducking out of your gear, means letting go of the boat, with strong currents and some swell you are history doing this one.

I'm sure I will now get a list of how to do its, but for most of us releasing a buckle whilst holding on to the zodiac is a simple alternative.

 

[SeaJay]

Albion once bubbled...


I'm not accusing you SeaJay,

Nah. No "accusations" felt.

I have read some of your threads explaining your choice, but i think that there are a lot of B/P users on this forum who do care what sort of gear others dive with, as every time there is a request for advice on what type of BC to get, most answers come back with "get a B/P Wing". It is quite good sport watching how many repplies will be posted before the suggestion comes in.

Well... There's a reason for that, and it's not just because everyone is "jumping on the bandwagon."

Frankly, all I can really speak for is myself... And *I* don't particularly care what someone else dives with. I don't know about the others, but I can see your point.

Any way you cut it, bp/wing owners are definitely passionate people... And it makes sense to find out why that is. I did, and I'm really glad I did.

But if everyone else chooses to dive something else, it's no skin off my back. On the other hand, if someone asks me about my experience, I'm going to tell them about my favorite.

Either way... No big deal.

question I'm a sixteen year old girl who likes wearing pink and dives once a year, what type of BCD should i get.

I would tell that person to check out their options... Just like anyone else. And if you asked me about my experience, I would recommend trying out a bp/wing, since that's my personal choice.

I can't see how age or gender would have anything to do with that person's desire to dive horizontally, or with the simplest and most advanced system possible. I suppose that if she liked pink, she could get pink webbing. It's easily available.

If instead she preferred a SeaQuest Diva, for example, I'd simply applaud her making a choice - a choice to dive. What else is there?

Reponse, Are you using twin steel 120's what sort of exposure protection, i would recomend a B/P wing etc etc.

I can see your point... And yes, the tendency is for most people to expect that others are going to take the sport of SCUBA as seriously as they do. Apparently, some people just don't.

If that same sixteen year-old girl said, "I like pink and I drive once a year, what kind of car should I get," would you not also ask questions like, "How far are you driving," and, "What sort of weather do you drive in?" You might also ask other qualifying questions like, "Do you live in the city or in a rural area," and, "How much money do you have to spend?"

My point is that qualifying questions are a necessity for a qualified answer. They might seem rediculous, but they're simply necessary before making a recommendation.

What you're observing is that bp/wings are often the answer to many people's questions. However, this tend to frustrate some people... And they tend to take out their frustrations on those who recommend the same gear often.

Seriously there are a lot of good reasons for a harness setup, but they do not always suit everyone. Buckles do have a place.

That's not been my experience, which apparently is different from yours. But hey, that's the spice of life - differing opinions. No biggie.

For instance I have been on many dives where diving in strong currents they have used zodiacs or small wooden outriggers to pick up the divers, can you really climb into a zodiac with your gear on, i'd like to see that one (i get enough complaints for handing up my gear with weights in it, let alone having to drag a fully geared diver into the boat).

I dive the highly recommended Halcyon Pioneer 27, set up DIR style. I use a Gary Hoadley 6 lb "standard" SS backplate with a Halcyon "storage pack" and wetsuit pocket attached. Most of the time I'm diving a single AL80, and it's always with a long hose. I often dive in very strong currents, which average about 2 knots. I've seen upwards of 6 knots... And I most often dive from a 15' jonboat with a 15 hp outboard motor. Many times, there's only two of us who go out together... And often we're both in the water. Therfore, there is nobody in the boat. Yes, I get in with my gear on, and this 220 lb guy does it without tipping the boat over.

If this seems impossible, then maybe I could show you the skill. It's simple and effective.

Next ducking out of your gear, means letting go of the boat, with strong currents and some swell you are history doing this one.

I don't know about this one... I don't take my gear off before getting back in the boat. I can't imagine trying to balance all of that at once, especially with a catch bag full of shark's teeth and a whipping current of 4 knots or more. What's worse is that I can't imagine a newbie trying to accomplish this task.

But hey, man... If you want to do it another way, it doesn't bother me a bit. What do I care? Feel free to do it any way you want... Just don't expect me to ruin my dive searching for you all day if you lose the boat...

I'm sure I will now get a list of how to do its, but for most of us releasing a buckle whilst holding on to the zodiac is a simple alternative.

Fair enough. If it works for you, then by all means...

 

[Albion]

Peace:mean:

 

[Wendy]

lairdb once bubbled...



Only the 7-foot-ness, which I strongly suspect evolved in tight environment situations (e.g. caves) where you might need the recipient to be a full body length behind in order to successfully extricate, and has then been religiously carried forward. In both non-training situations where I've donated to another diver, if they were on the end of a 7 foot hose (as shown so nicely on the 5D videos) they would have had the reg ripped out of their mouth before they got their first breath.



--L

Not that it really matters a lot in this thread, but I would like to make a correction. When donating air to an OOA diver and you are using a 7' hose, the OOA diver is in the front and not a "full body length behind you".

 

[DiverAnderson]

I do open water dives exclusively. I have also been in OOA situations. I feel comfortable with the standard hose length and an Air2, which I love. Why? Because you're constantly aware of where your power inflator is so it keeps you aware of where your octo is. I only have three things to locate:

1) my reg in my mouth
2) my computer/compass/SPG unit
3) my power inflator/ octo

keeping things combined keeps them simple. I'm sure other people disagree but I'd have it no other way. The DIR way seems to (i'm no expert on this by any means) put a premium on simplicity and I think that for simple one tank open water dives in good conditions, a canister light and 7 foot hose are overkill and could complicate a dive unnecessarily, IMHO.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

It's been my experience that a bp/wing is actually EASIER to get out of than a "regular" BC. Simply inflate the bp/wing, and duck out of it. That is, dunk under the surface while holding your arms up and it comes right off, without any mess or fuss.

I'm gald that you find it easy but lairdb and others may not. Getting out of a BP and wing while on the surface will get easier the more one practices the skill. But getting out of a BP/wing will always have a higher degree of difficulty...whether you "duck under" or "chicken wing". Improving the ease of exit is what "quick release" buckles are all about! A real slacker can just swim up next to the boat and let the boat crew snap off the BC...takes about two seconds. There are some big advantages associated with a BP/wing but ease of doffing the rig at the surface isn't one of 'em.

There is, of course, a compromise. Dare I say it...quick release buckles on a BP harness...the OMS IQ...or somehing like the Dive Rite TransPac.

And when I put it back on, I simply swam up to it from underneath... Much easier than trying to clip together some plastic buckles while floating on the surface.

If a diver has been taught the correct method of putting on a BC while on the surface and if that diver has practiced the skill it becomes very easy and can be done in a relaxed manner. It does not involve clipping together plastic buckles (except for the waist belt). Putting on a BP/wing while on the surface can be done in the same manner and can be done just as effortless. It's the takin' off that can crank up the calorie expenditure... at least a little bit.

I'm a bit confused over this point... What makes a bp/wing any more or less complicated than any other BC?

A BP/wing is more 'complicated' than a BC only in that it is composed of interchangable sub-units. I suppose if you always use just a single plate and a wing with no STA then it's more like a BC in terms of complexity. But start mixin' and matchin' plates, STAs, wings, channel weights and trim weights and things begin to get more 'involved'. Of course you don't have to do all of that...but that's at least one of the advantages of a BP/wing over a BC. A BP/wing is adaptable and it's configurable and this allows the diver to 'build' his or her rig to fit the occasion. That might be more than most need to do...or even want to do...but it is something that you can't do with a BC.

The bottom line is that if you're diving different places, you'll likely want to change your gear a bit. If you're diving with a "regular" BC, you'll want to change your exposure protection and your weighting accordingly... If you're diving with a bp/wing, you'll also want to change your exposure protection and your weighting accordingly. I don't see much difference there one way or the other.

The difference isn't in the exposure protection. Here...try this...when a BCer goes from cold water to warm he will end up adding weight. The 'tweaking' that will be done will be done in how he arranges that weight...so much on the weight belt or in the integrated pockets... maybe some in the trim pockets. But he has made no changes in his BC.

On the other hand, a BP-winger CAN make changes to his rig to make it more appropriate for the condition. For instance, I can change my Al BP to a SS BP and I can add a heavy STA so that I use minimal weight on my belt. Or, if I go with my drysuit and a thick undergarment, I might choose to go with a heavy SS BP and a heavy STA and maybe even add some trim pockets and weights to the cam bands. And...I'll exchange my 18# wing for my 27# wing.

But the truth is that every diver I've found who is a bp/wing diver is specifically NOT "equipment focused," but rather "skill focused." Whereas the "regular BC" diver might purchase a new BC every couple of years (according to the "latest and greatest"), a bp/wing diver focuses instead on skills and cares little about the gear. It's also been my experience that the people most concerned about BC's are those who are the "regular BC" owners... Those who dive with bp/wings appear to not really care who dives what sort of BC.

Focusing on skills? Sure.

"Cares little about gear"? Please...

No...They are definitely equipment focused...AND THEY SHOULD BE. You won't catch a BP-winger with old, shotty, crappy gear. You won't catch a BP-winger leaving his gear on the deck for others to step on. You might see a BP-winger adjust his rig for different environments. You'll definitely hear BP-wingers talkin' about their gear...what they have and what they want to get.

Having been in the biz for awhile I can tell ya that very few BCers replace their gear every couple of years so that they can have the "latest and greatest." But you will find BP-wingers adding more stuff to their scuba closet...come on...aren't you just dyin' to check out Koplin's new single wing...I am!

You're right. BP-wingers don't care about BCs...why should they? They want to talk about BPs.

I'm not saying your wrong... I'm saying that in my humble experience, I've found the oppostite to be true. Most of the bp/wing divers couldn't care less about what sort of gear you dive with.

You're on a different page...I never suggested that BP-wingers care what others on the boat are using...or whether or not someone chooses to use a BC or a BP.