A fun dive and silty training

[MikeFerrara]

Another instructor story just for DiverBuoy...

I was the student. It was the third dive of my PADI deep diver specialty. I probably had 30 or 40 dives at the time and had only been diving a few months. The truck at Gilboa used to be suspended at about 80 ft. It was held up by an air bell that, if I remember right, was about 30 ft at the bottom and about 15 ft at the top. The plan was to follow the cables down to the truck and continue down until we hit 100 ft. Then we were to come up and check out the inside of the air bell. after that we were to drop back down a little and swim over to the wall and return to the dock. I was the only student and was alone with the instructor. We droped to a max depth of 101 ft on my computer (there was an upright ladder there) then up to the bell. When we left the bell the instructor descended way faster than me. I droped as fast as I could to keep up. The last time I saw him he was still well below me. I kept droping trying to go faster. The truck (at 80 ft) came into view and I still couldn't see him. I didn't think the plan was to back that deep but the last time I saw him he was headed down like a rock so I continued down. I stoped whan I reached the ladder at 100 ft. This is now my second bounce to 100 ft. I hung there confused and alone at 100 ft wondering where he got off to. I started back up and met him just below the truck. He said he thought I was right behind him.

 

[WJL]

DiverBuoy,

Don't be so incredulous about the possibility of training brand new divers to perform basic skills off the bottom, while neutral in the water. It's just a matter of setting that as a basic requirement, and not treating it as if it is unusual.

I just finished watching a basic OW class where the neophyte diver was taught to stay horizontal and neutral right from the beginning. She finished the class in a normal amount of time, and has started out her diving career with good basic skills in the water.

IMHO decling to teach this way because of worries about "task loading" new divers is unwarranted. The task a new diver has to learn is how to dive safely and comfortably, and she or he must be horizontal and neutral to get there. I think the only "task loading" is on the instructor who is reluctant to undertake the extra work needed to teach this way.

 

[Cave Diver]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
I'd especially like to see divers of any level doing the scuba unit R&R in an 8' pool without striking the bottom or floating to the top. Just picture now a 6' tall man with 1' of clearance above his head and 1' of clearance below his feet.

Been there, done that. I have done a complete R&R of my SCUBA unit both in a pool and in open water while hovering neutral. If you are picturing a 6' man in 8' pool with only 1' of clearance between his head and feet then I picture someone who is vertical, and therefore not in correct trim.

If you really doubt it can be done, I'll see if I can arrange to borrow an u/w video cam from someone and show you.

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
Yes I am doubtful, more than doubtful ... you ask the impossible of your noobs. And there is no benefit that they gain, they will only be frustrated. There is a time and place to stress neutral buoyancy, and practice, and practice, and practice.

I disagree. I was DM'ing in the last class at my LDS and I was working with a student that was doing brilliantly academically, but was rather task loaded by the practical skills in the pool. I spent a lot of time working with her one on one in the pool during class and not only did she learn to hover neutral in a horizontal position by watching me, but she was also able to do mask clearing while neutral.

She ended up passing the class with flying colors, so yes, it can be taught to new students.

 

[neil]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...


As we have clearly agreed before, it is a standards violation to perform some skills in midwater.

Which skills would those be? Except for the moronic OW fin pivot (in my case the index finger pivot) all skills can and should be done off the bottom, IMO.

I,m happy to say that in my continuing endeavor to be more Ferrara-esque, I just finished a class in which for the first 3 dives the students did not touch bottom, and were more or less horizontal througout. I had them briefly on the bottom in the sand on the beach dive because I couldn't see them unless I was on top of them! Progress is being made, however.

The LDS I'm at now only gives me about 8 or 9 hours of pool time per class, so I teach neutral buoyancy just about first thing so the students are practicing it for all their pool time. There is nothing in PADI standards that prohibits you from doing this.

Neil

 

[neil]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
There is a time and place to stress neutral buoyancy ........

And another thing. I believe the time and place is from the get-go in the pool. If you agree that neutral buoyancy is a skill of primary importance in diving, then it should be taught immediately and throughout the course.

Diverbuoy: You are absolutely correct in that time is needed to teach this way. But it's so important that I look for other skills that I used to spend time with that perhaps don't need so much time. (grammar alert) I mean, how much time are ya gonna spend on the reg/snorkel exchange?
Neil

 

[DiverBuoy]

I would like to correct one misunderstanding ... I do teach neutral buoyancy and nowhere in my comments will you find this to be otherwise.

I am pointing out that it is in fact a standards violation to teach all of PADI's skills in a neutrally buoyant position - that's right read your OW Instructor guide again. But Mike Ferrara acknowledged this so I'm sure he is balanced about his approach.

The comment about 1' above and 1' below would give the impression that one is standing vertically in the water column which i did intend to imply simply because the best approach I have found for Scuba Unit R&R is on one knee on the bottom and one raised up with foot flat, to provide a resting place for the tank bottom when you swing it around in front of you. With integrated weight systems, balance, trim, and center of gravity changes ... when students swing their BC's out in front of them. And while "minimal assistance is allowed" I usually refrain from helping them as I want them to learn problem solving skills and because the excercise is not timed ... i give them whatever time they need to complete the task, including time to do it again if they trap any hoses. That said at least every other student falls over and lays on the tank on the bottom, or drifts up off the bottom and struggles in midwater.

I agree that many of the skills including Alternate Air Source use, mask and regulator R&R can and should be practiced in Mid-water. However, since PADI says "in water shallow enough to stand up in" I would very much like to see the video that shows no part of any beginning student touches the bottom or breaks the surface doing these skills during Confined Water Dive 1 - in only 3 feet of water - LOL.

There is an appropriate time and place for each of these practice opportunities. And for a few that is not necessarily the FIRST time they perform these skills.

Bottom line, my students do not touch the bottom of the ocean - except where PADI requires the fin pivot (or other body part) method of oral inflation to establish neutral buoyancy. The reality be known ... I am guilty of not requiring this from my students - as each of them demonstrates phenomenal buoyancy control - from the very start during the tour dive 1, by arresting their descent before they make contact with the bottom and then maintaining their buoyancy throughout all their OW dives.

Do we practice skills like R&R's in the pool while maintaining neutral buoyancy - yes. Do we violate standards NO.

 

[MikeFerrara]

DiverBuoy makes some good points in that all instructors need to know, understand and follow the requirements of the standards regardless of agency.

Please don't any one misunderstand what I'm doing. When a skill is required in OW dive 1 that's when we do it for the first time. If the standards or common sense indicate that a skill should be done for the first time in water shallow enough to stand in then that's where we do it the first time.

When I demonstrate mask clearing or R & R we are in water shallow enough to stand in. I do it neutral and horizontal. If students touch the bottom at this point it isn't a big deal since they have only been in the water a short time. However standards also recommend time for fun and practice as part of each module. During this time we may do mask R & R many times all over the pool. We can play games that combine skills. All of which is legal and I'm not adding or making up any skills but just practicing skills that are reintroduced in the course. You can do as much air sharing, free flow breathing as you want but it must be introduced for the first time in the module dictated in the standards.

There are only two skills that to my recollection require the use of the bottom by standards and those are scuba unit R & R in module 5 and the fin pivot in module 3.

There are also some unclear points in the standards so instructors should seek clearification from the agency if needed. An example is that in CW mod 1 students are required to do under water swimming while controlling both depth and direction. The confusing part here is that neutral buoyant swimming isn't introduced until mod 3. My interpretation, and feel free to report me if you disagree, is that while neutral buoyant swimming is required before students progress to any part of mod 4, bc inflation and control of depth while swimming is required in mod 1. So...during mod 1 I encourage a little air in the bc (if needed) but don't require mastery before mod 3. Applying some common sense, how would students practice kicks (which is a requirement in mod 1) while they're plastered to the bottom?

I have had a few students see me and our assistants and immitate us from the start. Once in a while a gifted student will just put a touch of air in the bc and be just perfect midwater in 31/2 feet of water. Monkey see monkey do. I don't discourage this at all. As far as I can tell there is nothing in the standards that prohibit it.

Which brings up another important point that I have mentioned before. That is that no staff member touches the bottom ever unless demonstrating one of the two skills that require it. I don't care how deep the water isn't if it's deep enough to cover them they are required to stay midwater. Maybe the most important part of this is setting a good example and giving students the time to practice skills by applying them (that's where the games come in). You don't master anything by doing it once.

There isn't anything hard here and I didn't invent anything. IMO, pool isn't over when the alotted time is up but when the students are ready for OW. Certain there is more than one way to develop these abilities in students. I would certainly be interested in hearing how other instructors do it. I'm not too proud to steal. hehe I even use a couple of things that MHK has mentioned. Actually I could provide a pretty long list of instructors I have taken ideas from.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Mike Ferrara, thanks for the details, though I had absolutely no doubt this was your approach. Like you I take full advantage of the "fun" following every session to practice practice practice. I agree with your approach that from the "fun" part of CW1 you should stress Neutral Buoyancy. And even with the introduction of controlling depth and direction neutral buoyancy should be stressed. There is room to expand on this when it is officially introduced ... neither approach is a standards violation. I know because I've asked.

I didn't mean to imply earlier that you exaggerate or stretch your classes abnormally longer than they have to be. Students aren't done with the pool until they are ready for OW. I agree fully with this. Now with this detailed description from you I'm quite sure we run our classes in many similar ways actually.

 

[neil]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...

I am pointing out that it is in fact a standards violation to teach all of PADI's skills in a neutrally buoyant position - that's right read your OW Instructor guide again. .

DB,
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant OW, not pool. I DID read the instructor guide again and cannot find the phrase "shallow enough to stand up in" anywhere. If you wouldn't mind, chapter and verse please. As reasonably prudent instructors we DO introduce certain skills in water shallow enough for standing, but that doesn't mean standards require it. Sheesh, I'm beginning to sound like Walter!
Neil

 

[DiverBuoy]

I believe in the standards section at the front of the Instructors manual it contrasts "Shallow" water with "water too deep to stand up in", then throughout the confined water chapters it continuously refers to "Shallow" water vs "water too deep to stand up in". There is I believe 2 places in CW1 where it says have students kneel or sit in "shallow" water to perform the task.

I'd have to pull out the manual to give you specific references ... don't have it handy. Hopefully, someone with quick access to the manual can provide you with chapter and verse...heh.