Cecil
Contributor
Paul thanks for sharing this story. I only thing I can add is get a mini magna doodle from Fisher Price. $6.00 at Toy are Us. I once explained to my dive buddy why he should not touch the Torpedo Ray with my magna doodle.
Accident analysis
- Thread starter paulthenurse
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ClassAction
Guest
Thanks for posting this story and subjecting yourself to the scrutiny of the scuba gods so that others might avoid such a problem in the future.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't have recognized that signal (never seen it before). I probably would have assumed he was having stomach issues, etc. Why not give the universal "huh?" signal and ask him to clarify? If that didn't get you anywhere, why not ask if he wanted to surface? My usual buddies and I use the "something isn't quite right" symbol for relatively minor things -- e.g. "one of my ears is taking a while to clear," or "I have a cramp." We all understand that if something more serious were to occur, the first signal is the thumb, followed by an explanation during or after the ascent. But I suppose if we were diving with an unknown buddy, I would probably consider the "something isn't quite right" signal as potentially more serious.
As for going over signals in advance, I think it's always a good idea but not likely to anticipate every situation. When I go over signals with a rent-a-buddy on vacation, I have never discussed weighting issues (but I will now!). In any event, don't beat yourself up for not agreeing on the universal signal for "I like pizza" or "Squirrels are friendly" in advance...
For what it's worth, I wouldn't have recognized that signal (never seen it before). I probably would have assumed he was having stomach issues, etc. Why not give the universal "huh?" signal and ask him to clarify? If that didn't get you anywhere, why not ask if he wanted to surface? My usual buddies and I use the "something isn't quite right" symbol for relatively minor things -- e.g. "one of my ears is taking a while to clear," or "I have a cramp." We all understand that if something more serious were to occur, the first signal is the thumb, followed by an explanation during or after the ascent. But I suppose if we were diving with an unknown buddy, I would probably consider the "something isn't quite right" signal as potentially more serious.
As for going over signals in advance, I think it's always a good idea but not likely to anticipate every situation. When I go over signals with a rent-a-buddy on vacation, I have never discussed weighting issues (but I will now!). In any event, don't beat yourself up for not agreeing on the universal signal for "I like pizza" or "Squirrels are friendly" in advance...
ArcticDiver
Contributor
Thanks Paul for a good post. The only bad thing about it is that now my cover is blown. I am officially one of those old guys whose very presence in the water is deemed a hazard. No?
Well, how about the post saying that at 70 he isn't as strong as he once was. You don't know that as a fact. Or, the one that automatically ascribes health problems just because of age? Folks I'm here to tell you that there are many folks just like me who are healthy, strong people at whatever age. The old stereotypes about age, health and ability just don't apply any more. So, use facts; not outdated biases. Besides, if lots of folks were to do that I couldn't use my frail, old man routine to get preferential treatment anymore.
By the way I'm not to that age yet; but not far away.
There are a couple of folks who doubted PTN's assertion that I didn't have all the air out of my dry suit. Don't doubt. While hanging on to him I went vertical and made sure there was no air in the wing or suit. Also, the water was fairly warm(+47F) so I had on a thin undergarment that didn't trap air. Also, read back over his post. It clearly said I went inverted to fin downward in opposition to the upward travel. What he sisn't know was that before that I had flared to slow the ascent.
Yep, it would have been best to check out the gear in a pool before using it in the ocean. But, that wasn't feasible. So, we had a confab and decided on weighting. It was off a bit. It happens.
We sure could have communicated better. But miscommunication happens. As has been pointed out it happens even among regular buddies, land or sea.
Since PTN and Len were lobstering they were weighted very heavy. So, he could have kept me down if I had been able to hang on.
My perspective, in 20/20 hindsight was that I should have grabbed something other than his manifold. Then maybe I could have hung on when he turned away. Also, had he grabbed me and hung on we could have made better communication and made a better finish.
In general the comments have been useful for all. Thanks for taking this like we intended it; as a vehicle for people to think about how they would handle and underweighted buddy whether by losing weight(s), or by miscalculation.
Oh yes, the side to side rocking motion that PTN correctly interpreted as meaning "I've got a problem was taught in my first Cert class. Until ClassAction's comments have always thought it to be universal. Maybe need to add it to the pre-dive briefing.
.
Well, how about the post saying that at 70 he isn't as strong as he once was. You don't know that as a fact. Or, the one that automatically ascribes health problems just because of age? Folks I'm here to tell you that there are many folks just like me who are healthy, strong people at whatever age. The old stereotypes about age, health and ability just don't apply any more. So, use facts; not outdated biases. Besides, if lots of folks were to do that I couldn't use my frail, old man routine to get preferential treatment anymore.
By the way I'm not to that age yet; but not far away.
There are a couple of folks who doubted PTN's assertion that I didn't have all the air out of my dry suit. Don't doubt. While hanging on to him I went vertical and made sure there was no air in the wing or suit. Also, the water was fairly warm(+47F) so I had on a thin undergarment that didn't trap air. Also, read back over his post. It clearly said I went inverted to fin downward in opposition to the upward travel. What he sisn't know was that before that I had flared to slow the ascent.
Yep, it would have been best to check out the gear in a pool before using it in the ocean. But, that wasn't feasible. So, we had a confab and decided on weighting. It was off a bit. It happens.
We sure could have communicated better. But miscommunication happens. As has been pointed out it happens even among regular buddies, land or sea.
Since PTN and Len were lobstering they were weighted very heavy. So, he could have kept me down if I had been able to hang on.
My perspective, in 20/20 hindsight was that I should have grabbed something other than his manifold. Then maybe I could have hung on when he turned away. Also, had he grabbed me and hung on we could have made better communication and made a better finish.
In general the comments have been useful for all. Thanks for taking this like we intended it; as a vehicle for people to think about how they would handle and underweighted buddy whether by losing weight(s), or by miscalculation.
Oh yes, the side to side rocking motion that PTN correctly interpreted as meaning "I've got a problem was taught in my first Cert class. Until ClassAction's comments have always thought it to be universal. Maybe need to add it to the pre-dive briefing.
.
OP
paulthenurse
Contributor
Welcome back ArcticDiver. Hope the local moose poulation survived! OK, so I have SOME left wing anti-hunting tendencies. lol
Believe it! ArcticDiver isn't your typical 70 year old. Or, as he more acurately points out, your idea of what 70 means is inacurate. As was mine. No-one had to carry his stuff down to the boat. And it's a long haul, FloundaPounda is at the end of a VERY long pier. AD carried a set of doubles and all of his other stuff their and back. And my crack about him shooting a moose wasn't just a wisecrack. If he did shoot one he could/would have carried the beast the 1/2 mile back to the river his cabin is nearby so he could bring home the half ton of moosemeat. Not at all what you/I expect from the senior set. We are the ones with the preconceptions/misconceptions. (EDIT)I should have left out the fact that AD is 70. It had absolutely NO bearing on the subsequent events.
AD demonstrated spot on bouyance control throughout our dives together up until the tanks swung positive on him. Using a best guess to weight yourself is just that. We had a situation where by circumstances we were forced to make a guess. Our guess worked on the first dive and wasn't all that far off on the second. I'd guess 3-5 pounds. I don't think his going positive had anything at all to do with air in his suit. I think it was ONLY a result of collective underestimating the weight requirements for the new setup.
Ya, what you said.
I tip the scales at 230. I'm a lard ***. Plus, I wear a fair amount of lead when I'm buggin' so I can stay belly to the bottom. Neutral is great until you find yourself pushed away from a rock you are trying to reach ubder because you don't have any leverage.
I think you had a hold of just about the best handle available to you. A honkin' hunk of steel in your hand should be a pretty solid anchor. Especially when it's strapped on the back of a lard arse like me. It just happened. AD didn't loose his grp because he's a frail old guy. Things are slippery underwater. Brown smelly stuff happens.
And that is why we (ArcticDiver and I) decided to bring this to the forum. For the benefit of all.
I've been looking everywhere for my OpenWater Book and can't find it anywhere. Can anyone post a link to a listing of universal signals. I certainly need to brush up on them.
Paul
Welcome back, AD.
edited to take my foot out of my mouth
ArcticDiver:
Believe it! ArcticDiver isn't your typical 70 year old. Or, as he more acurately points out, your idea of what 70 means is inacurate. As was mine. No-one had to carry his stuff down to the boat. And it's a long haul, FloundaPounda is at the end of a VERY long pier. AD carried a set of doubles and all of his other stuff their and back. And my crack about him shooting a moose wasn't just a wisecrack. If he did shoot one he could/would have carried the beast the 1/2 mile back to the river his cabin is nearby so he could bring home the half ton of moosemeat. Not at all what you/I expect from the senior set. We are the ones with the preconceptions/misconceptions. (EDIT)I should have left out the fact that AD is 70. It had absolutely NO bearing on the subsequent events.
ArcticDiver:
AD demonstrated spot on bouyance control throughout our dives together up until the tanks swung positive on him. Using a best guess to weight yourself is just that. We had a situation where by circumstances we were forced to make a guess. Our guess worked on the first dive and wasn't all that far off on the second. I'd guess 3-5 pounds. I don't think his going positive had anything at all to do with air in his suit. I think it was ONLY a result of collective underestimating the weight requirements for the new setup.
ArcticDiver:
Ya, what you said.
ArcticDiver:
I tip the scales at 230. I'm a lard ***. Plus, I wear a fair amount of lead when I'm buggin' so I can stay belly to the bottom. Neutral is great until you find yourself pushed away from a rock you are trying to reach ubder because you don't have any leverage.
I think you had a hold of just about the best handle available to you. A honkin' hunk of steel in your hand should be a pretty solid anchor. Especially when it's strapped on the back of a lard arse like me. It just happened. AD didn't loose his grp because he's a frail old guy. Things are slippery underwater. Brown smelly stuff happens.
ArcticDiver:
And that is why we (ArcticDiver and I) decided to bring this to the forum. For the benefit of all.
ArcticDiver:
I've been looking everywhere for my OpenWater Book and can't find it anywhere. Can anyone post a link to a listing of universal signals. I certainly need to brush up on them.
Paul
Welcome back, AD.
edited to take my foot out of my mouth
Charlie99
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Direct from the Recreational Scuba Training Council, which the majority of scuba cert agencies belong to:paulthenurse:
http://www.wrstc.com/downloads/CommonHandSignalsforScubaDiving.pdf
It show the hand waggling signal as "something is wrong"
OP
paulthenurse
Contributor
Thanks, Charlie99
ArcticDiver
Contributor
Actually, PTN, his buddy and I had a ball. I'm looking forward to my next trip to NE for another bit of exploration. On this trip I had to cancel a visit with another SB type to dive on a submarine. Would love to do that on next trip.
A word about weighting. Well maybe more than a word. When a person dives in different areas, with different equipment, different sea states, different water temperatures, etc how much weight to carry is always a guess. Certainly an educated guess. But a guess never the less. There is no magic formula to calculate exactly how much lead to carry. So what to do?
In many circumstances, as PTN points out, it is best not to be neutral. Diving in high sea states with extended stops at shallow depths is another place it is best not to be neutral. On the other hand going inside a cave, for example, being as close to neutral as possible is both best and very achievable.
Use the best weight guess you can based on circumstances and your previous experience. In fact this one thing is what got me started on keeping a log book. I can always look back to my last trip to get a starting point for my calculations.
Oh, and did I say that all decisions, including weighting, are the diver's? It is always the diver's decision; not his instructor, not the DM, not the buddy, not some conversation on SB. In this case I got the advise of other competent people. But I made the decision. As we pointed out it was off a bit. But not dangerously so. And that is the key.
Enough cyber preaching. On to getting the gear cleaned up and put away. There is a lot of work involved with this lifestyle!
A word about weighting. Well maybe more than a word. When a person dives in different areas, with different equipment, different sea states, different water temperatures, etc how much weight to carry is always a guess. Certainly an educated guess. But a guess never the less. There is no magic formula to calculate exactly how much lead to carry. So what to do?
In many circumstances, as PTN points out, it is best not to be neutral. Diving in high sea states with extended stops at shallow depths is another place it is best not to be neutral. On the other hand going inside a cave, for example, being as close to neutral as possible is both best and very achievable.
Use the best weight guess you can based on circumstances and your previous experience. In fact this one thing is what got me started on keeping a log book. I can always look back to my last trip to get a starting point for my calculations.
Oh, and did I say that all decisions, including weighting, are the diver's? It is always the diver's decision; not his instructor, not the DM, not the buddy, not some conversation on SB. In this case I got the advise of other competent people. But I made the decision. As we pointed out it was off a bit. But not dangerously so. And that is the key.
Enough cyber preaching. On to getting the gear cleaned up and put away. There is a lot of work involved with this lifestyle!
My first reaction from reading this is to want to go pet my Salvo 21W HID light.
It's HARD in low viz to keep teams together. It takes a lot of discipline, but high intensity lights make it much easier to stay together AND to signal one another if something is going wrong.
When I took Fundies, I was presented repeatedly with this situation: One buddy with an obvious problem; other buddy oblivious and rapidly disappearing, and me supposedly the "leader" of the team. I don't think there are any good answers once you get to that situation. The good answer is strong team skills and a commitment to keeping the divers within easy communication distance of one another.
I've also had the experience of getting light while using the bottom half of a set of unfamiliar doubles. It's not fun.
It's HARD in low viz to keep teams together. It takes a lot of discipline, but high intensity lights make it much easier to stay together AND to signal one another if something is going wrong.
When I took Fundies, I was presented repeatedly with this situation: One buddy with an obvious problem; other buddy oblivious and rapidly disappearing, and me supposedly the "leader" of the team. I don't think there are any good answers once you get to that situation. The good answer is strong team skills and a commitment to keeping the divers within easy communication distance of one another.
I've also had the experience of getting light while using the bottom half of a set of unfamiliar doubles. It's not fun.
Sorry but I am just being pedantic this morning, AD I would dive with you anytime, age is definitely not an issue. I just need clarification in one area, AD had an uncontrolled ascent.
From the incident
From the AD entry a few seconds later when Paul turned to find his buddy
From these 2 statements it seems that AD buoyancy was nearly neutral, probably slightly positive, when he swam over to Paul, descending a few feet allowed him to hover, not do a handstand which occurs if you are pounds light.
The only change to his weighting is the air that he is breathing, which, as he is calm, would be insignificant over a 5 minute period.
He ascends a few feet and he is into a runaway ascent.
This can only happen if either he has lost weight, or he has gained volume. Now as the only weight he is loosing is the air he is breathing then he must have gained volume.
What is the most common cause for a diver to gain volume when he ascends, Air.
Conclusion he had Air in his dry suit or his wing. When he went feet up he was unable to vent the air. He was not strong enough to swim against the extra lift as he ascended.
Result an uncontrolled ascent to the surface. :11:
From the incident
From the AD entry a few seconds later when Paul turned to find his buddy
From these 2 statements it seems that AD buoyancy was nearly neutral, probably slightly positive, when he swam over to Paul, descending a few feet allowed him to hover, not do a handstand which occurs if you are pounds light.
The only change to his weighting is the air that he is breathing, which, as he is calm, would be insignificant over a 5 minute period.
He ascends a few feet and he is into a runaway ascent.
This can only happen if either he has lost weight, or he has gained volume. Now as the only weight he is loosing is the air he is breathing then he must have gained volume.
What is the most common cause for a diver to gain volume when he ascends, Air.
Conclusion he had Air in his dry suit or his wing. When he went feet up he was unable to vent the air. He was not strong enough to swim against the extra lift as he ascended.
Result an uncontrolled ascent to the surface. :11:
ItsBruce
Contributor
Paul, you did nothing wrong. You might have done better sticking with the buddy with a problem. If that meant surfacing without the third diver, the lost buddy procedure would have brought him to the surface. Also, when AD disappeared, lost buddy procedure calls for you to surface, not go looking for him. First, surfacing only delays a search a few minutes, but can enable you to seek additional resources, i.e. call for help. Second, surfacing may obviate the need for a search. Remember, problems have an annoying habit of not going as planned.
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