OP
Thanks for confirming this Rob.
Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10
- Thread starter Cave Diver
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Thanks for confirming this Rob.
How should the cave community respectfully approach the issue of divers without training putting our hobby, and the lives of rescue divers at risk, in 2010?
On a very personal note, two good friends of mine went cave diving without certification and drowned around two years ago. One was found in a condition indicating he attempted to claw his way out in a final panic.
I missed chances to question them about their diving practice. Somewhere, a friend of the deceased made the same error. How many of us are turning a blind eye to friends diving without certifications? I pray that anyone in that situation will learn from this, and call your friend to let them know you will not support their diving in caves without certification.
I don't want to let my emotions push me to say anything cruel, but I really don't know how "politically correct" one can possibly be when a diver died breaking a known rule of accident analysis, the best known and most important one, and when that death puts the lives of others at risk, as well as access to caves for others.
May he rest in peace, may no more lives be lost in the pursuit of his remains, and may this stupid practice of letting OW divers into caves, end.
On a very personal note, two good friends of mine went cave diving without certification and drowned around two years ago. One was found in a condition indicating he attempted to claw his way out in a final panic.
I missed chances to question them about their diving practice. Somewhere, a friend of the deceased made the same error. How many of us are turning a blind eye to friends diving without certifications? I pray that anyone in that situation will learn from this, and call your friend to let them know you will not support their diving in caves without certification.
I don't want to let my emotions push me to say anything cruel, but I really don't know how "politically correct" one can possibly be when a diver died breaking a known rule of accident analysis, the best known and most important one, and when that death puts the lives of others at risk, as well as access to caves for others.
May he rest in peace, may no more lives be lost in the pursuit of his remains, and may this stupid practice of letting OW divers into caves, end.
Pimdiver
Registered
Jah Jah.
No. you should not feel responsible....someone took their free will and ability to take risk and made a decision to go somewhere he/she wasn't trained to go. PERIOD. You cavers should not/can not be held responsible for the mistakes (willful or otherwise) of others.
M
No. you should not feel responsible....someone took their free will and ability to take risk and made a decision to go somewhere he/she wasn't trained to go. PERIOD. You cavers should not/can not be held responsible for the mistakes (willful or otherwise) of others.
M
Dive-aholic, I watched the videos in your sig line. I am going to reference them in some of my classes. They are very powerful. I stress never entering wrecks or caves without training and I think they would really help. I wish others had heeded them.
The clay isn't an issue until you get back 1500' or so. It's REALLY small back there at that point. The flow is very heavy once you get back to the last clay bank/breakdown area, not to mention 150+ feet deep. Nasty area.
No training and back in a SM section of cave 150+ feet deep. Nothing good could have come from this. It almost sounds like a made up story in a dive magazine on the dangers of cave diving, but alas, it's true. Avoidable tragedy.
I'm pretty interested to learn how he got into the cave. A bump key would do it, but why?
Another issue is the gas required to get back to that point. I looked at my last dive there and to get to 1500' back I used 55 cubes of an aluminum 80, under half the capacity of 2 hp100's and about 20 cubes of O2 for the entire 100 minute dive. A diver with only a deco bottle would need very large cylinders to make it back there with proper reserves.
No training and back in a SM section of cave 150+ feet deep. Nothing good could have come from this. It almost sounds like a made up story in a dive magazine on the dangers of cave diving, but alas, it's true. Avoidable tragedy.
I'm pretty interested to learn how he got into the cave. A bump key would do it, but why?
Another issue is the gas required to get back to that point. I looked at my last dive there and to get to 1500' back I used 55 cubes of an aluminum 80, under half the capacity of 2 hp100's and about 20 cubes of O2 for the entire 100 minute dive. A diver with only a deco bottle would need very large cylinders to make it back there with proper reserves.
ucfdiver
Contributor
Meister482, Jajah, I think all of your questions will be answered shortly. There's a lot of info there, let's just wait for the recovery team. With soooo many divers on site, I'm sure that any info will be well known shortly. The more the news media knows, the more they'll bother them.
springs4me
Registered
Vultures do what they do best!
OP
My opinion, NOT known fact:
That is assuming the diver knew enough about this dive, and cave diving in particular to plan it properly. It's been confirmed that he didn't have cave training so my guess is that he didn't have the gas needed for this dive.
Also, depending on where he got into trouble, if he got turned around he might have had adequate gas for where he started, but not for the deeper sections where it seems he may have ended up.
UCFDiver,
I think the only question I've asked so far is, was the deceased trained, or did he break the number one, most important rule of cave diving in order to put the lives of my friends on the recovery team at risk, along with cave access. Not to mention the fact that his family probably liked him and misses him. That question has been answered.
Am I a vulture? Physically, no, I am a human being. On the internet, I contribute far more to the forum than a vulture. I do not sit around picking other members apart, though I do tell the truth to people as gently as I can. I can see why someone would say that if they don't read my posts and jump to conclusions. It is very hard to call someone's actions foolish without seeming rude. However, I think it is very justified in this situation, as the actions of the deceased were clearly incredibly irresponsible and foolish.
I am praying the body is recovered today, and that no more open water divers die in a cave. It's 2010, the internet shows very clearly how statistically dangerous it is for OW divers to be in caves. We have tons of stories of OW divers dying in caves (School Sink double fatality, Eagles Nest single fatality are the last two) on our forums. There are signs posted outside of caves and inside of caves. Open water divers need to learn that they are NOT special no matter how strongly they feel that history does not apply to them, and stop ending their lives foolishly. Cave classes are not that expensive, I'm a college student and I managed to afford them. A thousand dollars of training could have prevented this tragedy! It's a completely senseless death! Why that doesn't upset people, is beyond me. It's like people dying of hunger when the world has so much food, we often throw it away because we can't eat it all. Senseless deaths are the worst kind and we should all be ashamed!
I think the only question I've asked so far is, was the deceased trained, or did he break the number one, most important rule of cave diving in order to put the lives of my friends on the recovery team at risk, along with cave access. Not to mention the fact that his family probably liked him and misses him. That question has been answered.
Am I a vulture? Physically, no, I am a human being. On the internet, I contribute far more to the forum than a vulture. I do not sit around picking other members apart, though I do tell the truth to people as gently as I can. I can see why someone would say that if they don't read my posts and jump to conclusions. It is very hard to call someone's actions foolish without seeming rude. However, I think it is very justified in this situation, as the actions of the deceased were clearly incredibly irresponsible and foolish.
I am praying the body is recovered today, and that no more open water divers die in a cave. It's 2010, the internet shows very clearly how statistically dangerous it is for OW divers to be in caves. We have tons of stories of OW divers dying in caves (School Sink double fatality, Eagles Nest single fatality are the last two) on our forums. There are signs posted outside of caves and inside of caves. Open water divers need to learn that they are NOT special no matter how strongly they feel that history does not apply to them, and stop ending their lives foolishly. Cave classes are not that expensive, I'm a college student and I managed to afford them. A thousand dollars of training could have prevented this tragedy! It's a completely senseless death! Why that doesn't upset people, is beyond me. It's like people dying of hunger when the world has so much food, we often throw it away because we can't eat it all. Senseless deaths are the worst kind and we should all be ashamed!
OP
JahJah, I *think* the vulture reply was directed to the media comment in the previous answer.
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