It was typical teacher behavior in the 60's. I wasn't looking to get good. Just have fun. It was grade school music classes, not an audition for Carnegie Hall.
Advanced Open Water Certification
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Yeah, I've heard some stories though didn't experience what you did when in elem. school in the '60s. Nevertheless, I've probably taught a thousand elem. school beginners and can attest that unlike sports (and scuba as well), progressing on an instrument is not always fun. It's a good mix of hard work practising (not al all always fun for some reason unknown to me, as is shooting baskets in the backyard) and fun for sure. I actually played once in Carnegie Hall in 1975.
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... from an old Robin Williams skit ...
(son) "How do you get to Carnegie Hall, daddy?"
(father) "Practice, son, practice ..."
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
(son) "How do you get to Carnegie Hall, daddy?"
(father) "Practice, son, practice ..."
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Hey Bob--The Youth Symphony Orchestra of New York needed clarinet players (4), as the usual guys were out of town. Me and my three 20+-some-age compatriots at Queens College of CUNY said "lets do it". So we played with the Orchestra. I was the E flat clarinet player. Man that place was HIGH regarding the auditorium seats. I still have the 1975 program. My dad interviewed Benny Goodman, whose band also played there, in Manhattan many decades ago. These other 3 guys are somewhat known. I still play lead with the Westchesterband.org. in Scarsdale, NY.
Bob--yeah In NY we all knew the ole "Carnegie Hall" thing. I'm blessed that it actually HAPPENED to ME- just by chance. I REALLY played there.--Crap, it's got a Corporate Name now I think. I don't even know if it's still "Lincoln Center" anymore.
Bob--yeah In NY we all knew the ole "Carnegie Hall" thing. I'm blessed that it actually HAPPENED to ME- just by chance. I REALLY played there.--Crap, it's got a Corporate Name now I think. I don't even know if it's still "Lincoln Center" anymore.
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Bigeclipse
Contributor
hahahahahahahaha. I have never seen that video. SOOOOOO FUNNYYYYY!
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No, I meant I'm not sure if there is any place called Lincoln Center with everything being named for corporations nowadays.
Boatswain2PA
New
Newbie to diving here (as in don't even have my C card yet, but working on it). Spent the last 20 of 26 hours on these boards reading posts, watching videos (the warhammer video was, in one word....disturbing. I'll never feel bad about using non-eco sunscreen again), and generally getting educated on all (??) the dangers of diving. My goal is to be the safest (ie: most chicken-$hit!!) diver in the water.
I don't claim to be an expert on much of anything anymore, but I do know a thing or two about medicine so I'll offer a bit of perspective.
CPR is two things, cardio and pulmonary.
A person who goes into CARDIAC arrest has virtually no chance of survival unless they have very good protoplasm (ie: in good health to begin with), good quality CPR is started immediately, advanced life support is started very quickly, and they arrive at a good Emergency Department within a short time. If any one of these things are missing, the chances of them walking out of the ICU is virtually nil. Not 1%, not 0.01%, but probably closer to 0.001% (that's one in a million). Without good protoplasm, AND immediate good quality CPR, AND rapid ACLS, AND getting to the ED quickly, the heart may be restarted electrically or chemically, but the chances of them walking out of the ICU is effectively zero.
A person who goes into RESPIRATORY (or pulmonary) arrest has much greater chances of full recovery if they can receive adequate oxygenation to their circulatory system. If they don't, they quickly go into cardiac arrest with the concomitant outcomes described above.
Think heart and lung failure versus JUST lung failure.
Lung failure can be neurogenic, pulmonary, or vascular.
Neurogenic (ie: brain) lung failure is the brain not telling the lungs to breathe. This can be from a stroke (embolic or hemorrhagic). If this is the case, then long term ventilation MAY allow that person to walk out of the ICU and have a good quality of life. It can also (theoretically) be from the "mammalian dive reflex", so forced ventilation (ie: mouth to mouth) may be enough to resuscitate the victim.
Pulmonary lung failure, especially in diving, can be caused by laryngospasm (caused by choking), by mucous plugging, or by drowning (and by other processes, but we're limiting this to diving). Again, long term ventilation MAY allow that person enough cerebral oxygenation that they can walk out of the ICU and have a good quality of life.
Vascular lung failure, in diving, is most often caused by a pulmonary embolism (PE). A massive PE may suddenly overstrain the heart and send the patient into cardiac arrest, but oftentimes in this case the heart "re-starts" itself. We sometimes see this in what we call "syncope" when someone suffers a large PE, collapses to the ground in cardiac arrest, but then wakes up. As PEs are a common risk with DCS, this should always be considered in a distressed diver. If it was a PE that overstressed the heart, but the heart was able to recover and there is a pulse, long-term rescue breaths may maintain enough cerebral oxygenation to maintain brain function until the patient gets to the ED.
My $.02 (and that's really all it's worth) - CPR is useless for divers, or anyone else in remote areas. Rescue breathing, however, can indeed be lifesaving. Will a diver know if their distressed buddy isn't breathing AND doesn't have a pulse? No. So, if it is within the capacity of the diving partner, I think surface rescue breathing CAN indeed save some divers, and afford them the ability for a productive life.
BTW - huge thanks to all the experienced divers here who post their experiences so that we can all gain a bit of knowledge.
I don't claim to be an expert on much of anything anymore, but I do know a thing or two about medicine so I'll offer a bit of perspective.
CPR is two things, cardio and pulmonary.
A person who goes into CARDIAC arrest has virtually no chance of survival unless they have very good protoplasm (ie: in good health to begin with), good quality CPR is started immediately, advanced life support is started very quickly, and they arrive at a good Emergency Department within a short time. If any one of these things are missing, the chances of them walking out of the ICU is virtually nil. Not 1%, not 0.01%, but probably closer to 0.001% (that's one in a million). Without good protoplasm, AND immediate good quality CPR, AND rapid ACLS, AND getting to the ED quickly, the heart may be restarted electrically or chemically, but the chances of them walking out of the ICU is effectively zero.
A person who goes into RESPIRATORY (or pulmonary) arrest has much greater chances of full recovery if they can receive adequate oxygenation to their circulatory system. If they don't, they quickly go into cardiac arrest with the concomitant outcomes described above.
Think heart and lung failure versus JUST lung failure.
Lung failure can be neurogenic, pulmonary, or vascular.
Neurogenic (ie: brain) lung failure is the brain not telling the lungs to breathe. This can be from a stroke (embolic or hemorrhagic). If this is the case, then long term ventilation MAY allow that person to walk out of the ICU and have a good quality of life. It can also (theoretically) be from the "mammalian dive reflex", so forced ventilation (ie: mouth to mouth) may be enough to resuscitate the victim.
Pulmonary lung failure, especially in diving, can be caused by laryngospasm (caused by choking), by mucous plugging, or by drowning (and by other processes, but we're limiting this to diving). Again, long term ventilation MAY allow that person enough cerebral oxygenation that they can walk out of the ICU and have a good quality of life.
Vascular lung failure, in diving, is most often caused by a pulmonary embolism (PE). A massive PE may suddenly overstrain the heart and send the patient into cardiac arrest, but oftentimes in this case the heart "re-starts" itself. We sometimes see this in what we call "syncope" when someone suffers a large PE, collapses to the ground in cardiac arrest, but then wakes up. As PEs are a common risk with DCS, this should always be considered in a distressed diver. If it was a PE that overstressed the heart, but the heart was able to recover and there is a pulse, long-term rescue breaths may maintain enough cerebral oxygenation to maintain brain function until the patient gets to the ED.
My $.02 (and that's really all it's worth) - CPR is useless for divers, or anyone else in remote areas. Rescue breathing, however, can indeed be lifesaving. Will a diver know if their distressed buddy isn't breathing AND doesn't have a pulse? No. So, if it is within the capacity of the diving partner, I think surface rescue breathing CAN indeed save some divers, and afford them the ability for a productive life.
BTW - huge thanks to all the experienced divers here who post their experiences so that we can all gain a bit of knowledge.
Those are the sorts of things you are hoping for when giving rescue breaths in the water.
In first aid today, we teach that in normal CPR cases, once you realize that the person is not breathing, you don't need to check the pulse--that person will not be circulating, either, so get right to the CPR. There are exceptions, though, and one of those exceptions is drowning. A drowning victim can have circulation with no breathing, at least for a while. There is still no point in checking a pulse, though, because it is too hard to detect. In this case, you assume there IS circulation, because to assume otherwise is to accept the victim's death.
Decision making is also part of the Rescue course. Where are you? How long until you can get the victim to a suitable surface for CPR? Is an AED available? Those issues will help you decide whether to make the fast tow to the boat or start the rescue breaths.
I know the details of exactly one successful rescue of an unconscious diver. It happened with some friends. They were done with their dives and had removed their gear on the boat when one of the crew members started shouting at another boat moored nearby. One of their divers had surfaced and was struggling to get back on the boat--it looked like he had failed to inflate his BCD. Because he was not thrashing about (see "Drowning Does not Look like Drowning," their boat crew did not notice his struggle. When the man went under, the DM from my friends' boat dived in and caught him at about 20 feet. He was unconscious. In this case they got him back to the boat first, and the CPR did indeed revive him.
The problem with in water breaths is you have to assure there is a good open airway. Try that in water too deep to stand while towing a victim. Realize that you have to stop and position the head, get yourself buoyant enough to not drag the victim under (had that done to me a few times by overzealous rescue students), and don't turn the head so that you end up closing the airway. If you don't have a pocket mask you also have to pinch the nose and tilt the head back. If you can actually stand and do this it's possible to deliver effective breaths. If not add to the above that you and the victim may be in heavy suits, with other gear restricting your movements, and possibly restricting the victims chest.
As I said in one rescue class I taught we did timed versions of rescue with in water breathing and without. One team had two very strong swimmers. Even they had difficulty with this and getting the vic to shore where compression could be done in a timely manner. On one swim over 50 yds towing the vic to shore without breaths took just over a minute and a half. At two and a half minutes the vic was on shore with O2 and simulated CPR. The same distance trying to deliver breaths, which again meant stopping so they could be done, took just under 4 minutes.It was over 5 before O2 and sim CPR. The one team member was a Physicians Assistant with 10 yrs of ER experience as a paramedic and nurse before the PA. She told everyone afterwards that if she were ever in trouble to not bother with the in water stuff. Haul ass and get to where effective care can be delivered.
As I said in one rescue class I taught we did timed versions of rescue with in water breathing and without. One team had two very strong swimmers. Even they had difficulty with this and getting the vic to shore where compression could be done in a timely manner. On one swim over 50 yds towing the vic to shore without breaths took just over a minute and a half. At two and a half minutes the vic was on shore with O2 and simulated CPR. The same distance trying to deliver breaths, which again meant stopping so they could be done, took just under 4 minutes.It was over 5 before O2 and sim CPR. The one team member was a Physicians Assistant with 10 yrs of ER experience as a paramedic and nurse before the PA. She told everyone afterwards that if she were ever in trouble to not bother with the in water stuff. Haul ass and get to where effective care can be delivered.
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