Air 2 good/bad ???

[pggeek]

I have a scuba pro air 2 and love it. I am not going to argue a octo on a long hose is better when using it but the air 2 is better when not using it. You just need to pratice with it because it does shift control around a little. But it is alwas in the same spot and breeths well, I throw it in my mouth now and then to practice. personally i rathor not have the extra clutter and thing hanging. besides I adj my bc all the time so I know where the air 2 is who knows what my octo gets tangled in.

 

[jplacson]

Ok, I've been considering an Air2 type system as well...

now, before all the tech divers start flaming me... I really want to hear both sides... I've been reading ALL the threads here and in other forums about the pros and cons of such a system.

Here's something I'd like to ask though...

Most complaints are on the non-standard placement of the Air2...not on its reliability...granted that it has more failure points than a split system. But has any Air2 actually failed to deliver air? I'm not being sarcastic..I'd just like to know how much greater is the failure rate of an Air2 system over a regular octo (which can fail as well)

With regards to donating your primary over your octo... this goes beyond the Air2 system... DIR octos are mounted on 20" hoses... bungeed around their necks. There's NO WAY an OOA diver could wrestle a DIR octo away from the donor diver... the donor diver gives his PRIMARY system (on a 6'-7' hose) to the OOA diver.

If I mounted my primary on a 6' hose, and used an Air2... other than the deflating process... why is this setup so taboo in the DIR or tech diver community? The OOA procedure is almost identical to DIR... much more than PADI's OOA procedures. In fact, a DIR diver should be more 'at home' with an Air2 buddy than with a PADI buddy. Since an Air2 diver's OOA procedures are identical (at least from the OOA diver's POV) to DIR.

Anyway, my main concern is... how much more prone to failure is the Air2 over a normal octo?

I'm looking at buying an Apeks ATX50 reg... with either an AT20 octo or Apeks' Octo+ (yes, the Zeagle Octo+ is made by Apeks)

I emailed Apeks and they were honest enough to inform me that the Octo+ is not a smooth breathe... they said that it is made for emergencies only and not to expect performance close to any of their current line-up.

Of course I never expected great performance from an emergency system... I just want it to work. That's what it was meant for.

But like I said, for those of you who have Air2s or Octo+ or any similar system... how often does it fail? What kind of failures have you experienced? And is it any more unreliable than a regular octo... in terms of a 2nd stage.

To the tech & DIR divers... just wondering... isn't the procedure I stated above, closer to DIR procedures in OOA situations than PADI training? And wouldn't the level of training of a diver dictate the effectiveness of any piece of equipement used? Whether a regular octo, bungeed octo on a short hose, or an Air2? Wouldn't any config, be a 'death-trap' if not properlly trained to use it? (A PADI diver would freak with a DIR setup)

I'm just trying to really compare sides... for ME... I'm not trying to persuade anyone to use an AIR2 or to stay away from one. I'm trying to see if the setup I want is right for me. Thank you all for your patience...specially the DIR guys... sorry for bugging you all regarding this topic... I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before deciding on gear I intend to breathe from! :lol:

 

[DA Aquamaster]

An Air II requires you to donate your primary, which is the same basic philosphy as donating your long hose primary reg. The Air II is also designed to be easily located, as is an alternate second stage on a short hose bungeed around your neck. The techniques are very similar, even if using an air II is not "doing it right".

Personally, I think an Air II also makes sense for solo diving as it provides you with a backup second stage to access the contents of your primary tank and then allows you to skip a conventional octopus and instead carry a redundant second stage and pony bottle. Less equipment, fewer hoses, better streamlining, same number of options - a good deal all the way around.

I have used both the Scubapro Air II and the TUSA Duo Air (same as an Air 2 and made by the same company but with different colored and shaped buttons) for about 10 yrs and have never had a problem or failure. It's a pretty simple and bullet proof design.

Part of the design concept is that, unlike an octopus, an Air II gets used constantly, gets flushed out every time you dump air through it and stays cleaner, which contributes to reliability. And since you also use it often, small problems like a slight freeflow, will get noticed and corrected. In contrast it is not uncommon to see a conventional octopus get drug through sand, mud, sea weed, etc and be in no condition to be used if needed on short notice.

 

[jonnythan]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...
An Air II requires you to donate your primary, which is the same basic philosphy as donating your long hose primary reg. The Air II is also designed to be easily located, as is an alternate second stage on a short hose bungeed around your neck. The techniques are very similar, even if using an air II is not "doing it right".

Personally, I think an Air II also makes sense for solo diving as it provides you with a backup second stage to access the contents of your primary tank and then allows you to skip a conventional octopus and instead carry a redundant second stage and pony bottle. Less equipment, fewer hoses, better streamlining, same number of options - a good deal all the way around.

I have used both the Scubapro Air II and the TUSA Duo Air (same as an Air 2 and made by the same company but with different colored and shaped buttons) for about 10 yrs and have never had a problem or failure. It's a pretty simple and bullet proof design.

Part of the design concept is that, unlike an octopus, an Air II gets used constantly, gets flushed out every time you dump air through it and stays cleaner, which contributes to reliability. And since you also use it often, small problems like a slight freeflow, will get noticed and corrected. In contrast it is not uncommon to see a conventional octopus get drug through sand, mud, sea weed, etc and be in no condition to be used if needed on short notice.

The bungeed backup gives you all of the important advantages you have listed and doesn't require you to change your ascent procedures in a high stress situation when your muscle memory is most critical.

 

[jonnythan]

jplacson once bubbled...
To the tech & DIR divers... just wondering... isn't the procedure I stated above, closer to DIR procedures in OOA situations than PADI training? And wouldn't the level of training of a diver dictate the effectiveness of any piece of equipement used? Whether a regular octo, bungeed octo on a short hose, or an Air2? Wouldn't any config, be a 'death-trap' if not properlly trained to use it? (A PADI diver would freak with a DIR setup)

I'm just trying to really compare sides... for ME... I'm not trying to persuade anyone to use an AIR2 or to stay away from one. I'm trying to see if the setup I want is right for me. Thank you all for your patience...specially the DIR guys... sorry for bugging you all regarding this topic... I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before deciding on gear I intend to breathe from! :lol:

Well, I can't give an "official" answer, but the answer lies in what's *best* instead of what's *almost good enough*. In a high stress situation (an OOA diver), you become extremely task loaded and your muscle memory reflexes are what count the most. This is when you *most* need to pay attention to what's really going on and not about the ascent procedure that's different than normal. Additionally, an inflator malfunction or hose disconnect renders your backup second stage disfunctional.

The reason that it's so taboo is that the solution offers no advantages over the bungeed octo and introduces critical disadvantages. There's simply a better way.

 

[jplacson]

Thanks DA, Jonny... Jonny... ok, I understand the whole deflate procedure violation... but I still feel that boils down to training, and not the flaw of the Air2...but what about as a regulator? Are the Air2 or Apeks Octo+ just as reliable as a regular octo? If not, are they THAT much more unreliable? Or does it boil down to user care & maintenance? I'm primarily concerned with the actual build quality of teh Air2 or Apeks (or Zeagle) Octo+ since these are my 2 considerations.

I'm not yet certified for cave or wreck diving, and when I do train for these dives, I probably will switch to a bungeed octo. But I'd like to have a 'casual' set for OW dives and basic fun dives with my friends. So an Air2/Octo+ is a bit lighter & streamlined for OW dives.

I just want to know if these are poorly built regs... or are they decent & reliable enough to get the job done..ie: emergency OOA and ascent from 100'

Thanks again for your time! Don't worry... I haven't bought my reg yet... and It'll probably be a long time before I really decide on one with all the options out there.

So far I'm kinda leaning towards Apeks as a reg brand. Scubapro is 2nd on my list mainly cuz service fees for Scubapro here are one of the most expensive.

With either brand, I can get a matching 'safe 2nd' inflator so sticking with one brand for my reg set really appeals to me.

 

[hantzu701]

this thread has been hammered to death.

Just thought I'd throw in my experiences.

I bought my equipment from my LDS shortly after I got certified. I guess I cratered to the argument that diving with your own equipment would help me learn faster.

Anyway, my rig came with an Air 2 instead of an octopus. This is despite the fact that my LDS rentals don't have Air 2 and use an octopus.

At the time my LDS managed to convince me that Air 2 was the "better" solution. In subsequent open water dives with my buddy (who also has Air 2), we found OOA drills to be awkward, but doable. Dumping air from the BC, by pulling on the Air 2, works as designed, but freaked me out.

After our AOW, we've revisited the OOA drills and were really uncomfortable with the entire Air 2 OOA procedure. We've tried the drill in which the OOA diver has to surface without a mask. We've also did the drill in which the OOA diver and his/her buddy share the buddy's primary. I agree that these drills are unlikely events, but task overload in cold water is a real concern for us.

I orginally thought that we could get around our doubts with practice. We had started these drills at 60 ft. However, there was a mean thermocline. We started making mistakes - like setting for the surface without checking for overhead obstructions, or losing control of the ascent because the person using the Air 2 forgot to vent. We did the drills at 30 ft without major problems.

Just my limited experiences. I think that the Air 2 is a well engineered piece of gear that does what it's suppose to do. ScubaPro probably needs to do a better job with educating it's consumers of the practical use of the product.

However, I think my buddy and I weren't convinced that this gear solution and procedure for OOA made sense for us. Since then, we added an octopus and use the Air 2 as a tertiary backup. I know this is not the best solution, and I'm sure that our gear and diving skills will change as our diving becomes more technical.

 

[Genesis]

to get rid of a hose (entanglement and clutter issue) but are keeping it as a "tertiary backup" then IMHO you should put it on eBAY and get a regular inflator.

You can get $100+ for it on eBAY, and the inflator will cost you $20 from Joe Diver. So that's a net gain of $80.

Why? Because if you need a TERTIARY backup, you can breathe off the BC inflator! Yeah, its ugly, but it works, and for the EXTREMELY unlikely event of needing it, you get rid of the Air2, which adds complexity at that point (and one more stage to be serviced every year) without giving you much in return.

Now if you can deal with the Air2 on a recreational setup, then go for it. Just make sure you can donate your primary - specifically, that the hose on your primary is long enough.

BTW, on SP BCs you don't need to pull on the Air2 hose to dump. There is a little "trigger" on the BC's dump where the inflator hose attaches to the BC; you can trip that (forward) with your finger to dump - pulling is not necessary. Why the people who sell these things don't show divers that calls into question their intelligence!

If you're actually making an ascent on the Air2, use that to dump your BC, or use the opposite (right) shoulder dump, which all recent SP BCs have. It avoids pulling on the hose (which IMHO is a bad idea anyway, as it is possible for it to fail catastrophically when you do that, and if THAT happens you'll be VERY unhappy)

 

[oversea]

Your recent post is scary. Breathing off the bc? better than air ii? 80 bucks? I know how you do it your way but why? As far as the dump, I question the users intellegence. That small tab is common sense and is easily figured out if one takes the time to go over one's gear. Plus, if a scuba pro bc, you most likely will have the right dump (my favorite) anyway.

 

[Genesis]

I was commenting that keeping an Air2 as a TERTIARY (third) backup is foolish and introduces risks (like a freeflow from it) without benefit - and that if you REALLY needed a THIRD second stage you can breathe off the inflator in a pinch.

What's scary about that? You might try it sometime - its not difficult to do, and in extremis (you've had TWO second stage failures) it does, indeed, work.