Air Quality Certificate

[KeyserSoze]

I have the GUE website on my shortcuts. I like its ideas and support its exploration of not only new sites but new concepts and ideas. I sent money in and became a member a couple years ago simply to support GUE- Not to become part of an "elite diving force" I am confident in myself without that.

They enhance the sport by contributing these and other things to the divers.

Though the quote was from a crackpot it doesn't mean it isn't valid.

What is with the constant assumption that everyone is attacking you?

 

[Jimmy B]

KeyserSoze once bubbled...
A quote I though applicable to the DIR ideology of instruction and information seen thus far......

First of all we are not discussing DIR here, lots of other threads and discussions on the subject. Feel free to join one of them. Just a note if your reading the threads fully and know anyone involved here, most people are just trying to get the full information, it’s just being extracted the long way. The only one that found him insulted was you when someone asked you about your present employment, then someone sticks up for you and presto you prove the first guy right.

 

[UpperCanDiver]

I really enjoyed the movie Usual Suspects.....stop posting....You are ruining it for me!

 

[James Pate]

pufferfish once bubbled...

Ok lets get to some of your questions. As for data to back up my 10% quote lets just say I have compiled a long list from pounding the pavement and from people on the board PMing me about what certficates and compressor info shops have. I standby my statement that less than ten percent of Ontario fill stations are meeting MOL standards for shops with employees. How about this piece of 'data' just to keep you interested. The shop where you get your fills in Kingston is a five star padi shop so it should have quarterly analyses on file. Let me see OUC certs done three times a year, used military compressor, intake inch and a half eight feet tall, filters hand packed. How is that for some hard data on which I have based my stats?

Puffer,
If the shop you are referring to is northern tech diver then you are way off the mark once again. The shop does no have a used compressor. Although I am not sure of the intake pipes diameter, It is definitely not 8 feet high. The filters have never been hand pack. They use replaceable cartridges and always have from the start. I believe there are also two charcoal filters in the stack, but if you want the actual specs al you have to do is ask Dan. The compressor is his baby. I am not sure where you got the 3 certs-a-year from. When that system first went in the gas was tested every month and one month it was tested twice. I maybe wrong but you also need to check the 5 star Padi rating as well. They might just be a Padi store.

So how about your piece of data that has kept me interested? It is erroneous, misleading and defamatory in its intent. This goes back to my first post. You cannot justify your long list as quantifiable data. It is inaccurate at best. Therefore you 10% does not met the acid test. This thread is riddled with these innuendos of yours. You discredit yourself each time you post one.

Now I will return the question for you to answer yourself. How is that for some hard data on which you have based your stats?

This brings me to your sneaking around on your secret mission. If you had of been straight with the boys at NTD when you wanted information regarding the air station; you would presently have accurate data of NTD and to think all you had to do was ask. Personally, I have been to 3 shops since Friday and asked for their current certification. Each was able to produce a current Z180 cert from OUC. One of the stores in the west end of T.O. was kind enough to gave me a photocopy for me file. There is really no need for the drama.

The answer to your OCA question is that there is no need to put out standards that are covered by common sense

James

 

[James Pate]

Now for rule 1

 

[pufferfish]

cat once bubbled...
(I can't believe I'm still reading this thread but here goes.)

Why does this thread keep coming back to the argument on *which* standard is acceptable (or legislated) when it's clear from examples given that the main problem is that a number of stores aren't getting air tested AT ALL.

What's the priority here? Convincing the stores that are currently testing to the US standard into switching to the Ontario standard *ought* to be coming in a distant second to pressuring the stores that don't test at all should be first. Shouldn't it? Fix the big problem first, then work on the lesser one.

Cat I knew you being a water scientist that questions about air quality and lab testing would keep you hooked

You mentioned this same valid concern in mid-June and I replied to this on June 19th. I will post the same reply for the benefit of the late comers here.

"I can assure the readers of this thread though that the worst case offenders (no testing for over a year) are being brought to task behind the scenes. Just remember that this takes time to write letters, call various people to get the facts (like Ruby Ochoa at Trace Analytics), and follow up on these findings. A lot of this is done on people's spare time after their day jobs. Please be patient and change will happen,.."

Other scubaboarders mentioned shops with no certifications and I had personally been in seven with no certs for over a year (five of them with no test for over three years).Letters have gone off to the respective agencies and three of the seven have nice new certs. Actually two of those did not require letters just a civil conversation as to why they should be testing. The shops complied voluntarily.

One of the reasons JamesP is finding fresh certifications in Metro is 'we' have been around eight weeks ago discussing this subject with the shops and so new certs have begun showing up. Of course James did not consider this but had he looked at the dates on those certs they are likely from after this thread began. I agree a recent OUC cert is better than none but it still falls very short of what the MOL requires. So yes in our spare time we are 'walking the talk' not just 'talking the walk'.

You ask for a concise post regarding what the air testing requirements are in Ontario.

Assuming the shop has employees which the majority do then for their employees they must have their air analysed by a Canadian accredited lab to CSA Z180.1 twice a year.

For the other two tests required say if PADI or NAUI requires quarterly testing then one can use Trace, OUC, Maxxam whomever. In an ideal world the standard would be quarterly testing by an accredited lab like they have in Florida which was instituted after the noticed a higher than national average diver fatality and injury rate.

I don't know what is so complicated about that. Two tests separated by six months and done by one of the three Canadian accredited labs. Plain and simple.
Cost: $500/yr
Diver peace of mind: Priceless

 

[pufferfish]

Jimmy B once bubbled...
Puffer Fish,

Here’s another possible solution.

For the OUC to meet the accreditation standard, I believe it is a money thing.
The costs vary from 3000.00 yearly to 5000.00 every 2 years. They are the voice for divers in Ontario, so lets support them. Lobby all the dive shops for this and have them prepare to pay for the extra testing. Sounds good so far. To pay for this extra testing have all divers pay 10.00 for a fill. Two reasons here, One; they’re now guaranteed to receive grade a 100% accredited air by the current standard as requested. Two; Offset the costs of the extra testing.

JB as I said to you (or was that Tom R) on the Nitrox thread the OUC should not be in the business of testing Ontario divers' air period. I am all for having a voice for Ontario divers to represent the various parties like shops, charters, instructors, students,etc. when the need arises and to organize things like diver forums. There is a conflict of interest though when the same agency you pay membership dues to is also going to test the fill stations air. They might not even install a methanizer as they know that the bulk of fill station failures for air in the US is for low concentration CO and CO2. We wouldn't want to have to fail some of our members who pay part of our salaries through air testing program now would we. If a large percentage of the OUC's budget comes from substandard air testing rather than from memberships derived from providing us the diver or shop owner with a useful organization then the OUC is going to disappear.

As far as getting them accredited it would be a huge financial undertaking and basically air testing should not be part of their mandate. One does not just buy a GC and stick it in a trailor and then pay the fee to the Standard Council of Canada and call themselves an accredited lab. They have obviously convinced many fill station owners and divers they are legit but closer analysis reveals the OUC is a very weak link in the chain of diver air safety. And this is from the very organization who should be looking out for diver safety.

Please go back and read what Sneaky posted on page 14 July 21 about Criteria and Procedures for Accreditation.
The OUC does NOT have:

i) "Technically competent staff with the requisite skills and knowledge" This means people with credentials as chemists or analytical technicians not OUC board members who want a gig testing air.

ii) "The environment with the requisite facilities and equipment"
The OUC has a GC in a facility that has never been checked by any standards association. This would be like you purchasing a GC and sticking it in your garage and then claiming to offer reliable testing when in fact you don't as there is no methanizer or proper method to measure particulates and hydrocarbons.

iii) "The requisite procedures" Please ask them now they measure particulates.

iv) "The requisite quality control" This means having checks in place to ensure accuracy and precision or results and an external independent body who verfies this QC is being done correctly and at the right frequency.

So here is a list of questions to ask the OUC if you can get a hold of them.

1. Are you accredited by the Standard Council of Canada?
2. Can you provide me with a Scope of Accreditation issued by the SCC?
3. Are you testing to the CSA Z180.1 2000 standard?
4. Do your staff have any credentials in analytical chemistry?
5. Do you participate in any external monitoring program to ensure the results are reliable (accurate and precise).
6. Do you meet the requirements of ISO 9002:1994?
7. Do you have a methanizer on your GC to ensure the reliability of low concentrations of CO or CO2.

To anyone who has any lingering doubts about the quality of OUC testing I would encourage them to call the OUC and ask these questions. You should get back seven answers of No, No,No,....

And why do we want to continue to use the OUC? It is not possible to make the OUC accredited for a few grand nor is it in the Ontario diver's interest to do so.

 

[pufferfish]

Tom R once bubbled...
I think the point that is being hashed out is why is the OUC not good enough as it was the standard for the last X amount of years, then all of a sudden just not good enough.

It was suggested that first get the compressors testing, then raise the bar -- not good enough.

So we're back to square 4 but getting educated and I will say this publicly quite well by Puffer and Bubble.

There must be a reason why this was brought out in the first place. No answer.

I actually still reading puffers links. A couple of phone calls I have made have yet to be returned.

Pufffer were you on the testing dives conducted in Toby this weekend?

Tom pumping water through lead pipes was also the standard for many years until we found out lead wasn't so good for childrens' growing brains. We also used asbestos as an insulator until we found out it caused lung cancer. In Ontario we even cut back on the frequency of drinking water testing, had no requirements on those who did the sampling, and farmed the testing out to labs which didn't have the same quality control as the old public lab and guess what we got Walkerton.

The issues surrounding the testing of diver air and the quality of that testing are much the same. OUC is inferior testing for the many reasons cited above. The continued use of the OUC given its inferior technology and lack of standards then becomes a public health issue for the diver, especially so for the ones mixing this air with other gases to use at high ambient pressures.

Technology and labratory standards have evolved far beyond what the OUC can offer at this point in time. Possibly in the past they offered a service that was not available but closer inspection now reveals they have fallen so far behind the curve it is time to board the GC trailor up and switch to good independent accredited testing.

Thanks by the way for the offer of the free book if I take one of those DIR-F courses. I have read many of the posts from folks who don't have the intention of moving into the tech realm, but who said the course greatly improved their skills. Anything that can improve diver skill or air quality is raising the bar for diver safey and this is a step forward.

Nope I wasn't on the testing dives but was first down on the Niagara II and coming back up the line before all those guys with two tanks, seven foot hoses, and black masks invaded our space

 

[pufferfish]

James Pate once bubbled...

Puffer,
If the shop you are referring to is northern tech diver then you are way off the mark once again. The shop does no have a used compressor. Although I am not sure of the intake pipes diameter, It is definitely not 8 feet high. The filters have never been hand pack. They use replaceable cartridges and always have from the start. I believe there are also two charcoal filters in the stack, but if you want the actual specs al you have to do is ask Dan. The compressor is his baby. I am not sure where you got the 3 certs-a-year from. When that system first went in the gas was tested every month and one month it was tested twice. I maybe wrong but you also need to check the 5 star Padi rating as well. They might just be a Padi store.

So how about your piece of data that has kept me interested? It is erroneous, misleading and defamatory in its intent. This goes back to my first post. You cannot justify your long list as quantifiable data. It is inaccurate at best. Therefore you 10% does not met the acid test. This thread is riddled with these innuendos of yours. You discredit yourself each time you post one.

Now I will return the question for you to answer yourself. How is that for some hard data on which you have based your stats?

This brings me to your sneaking around on your secret mission. If you had of been straight with the boys at NTD when you wanted information regarding the air station; you would presently have accurate data of NTD and to think all you had to do was ask. Personally, I have been to 3 shops since Friday and asked for their current certification. Each was able to produce a current Z180 cert from OUC. One of the stores in the west end of T.O. was kind enough to gave me a photocopy for me file. There is really no need for the drama.

The answer to your OCA question is that there is no need to put out standards that are covered by common sense
James

James you are starting to sound like the tobacco company executive who asks to see proof that tobacco is addictive. Does the 'A' team want to continue to use OUC tested air despite lots of evidence supporting the position that this may represent a real 'point of failure' in your pre-dive planning. After all those urgent demands the last few days you now are satisfied with seeing new OUC certs at TO shops. I thought the 'A' team would only want the best analysis available especially when diving to depths at 7 atm. You are willing to mix medical grade O2 with unaccredited OUC air where one can never know the reliability of the CO or CO2 concentrations?

You duck the OCA question and yet TDI, IANDI, and ANDI all have positions on this as they recognize the importance of hyper-pure air to mix with medical grade O2 or helium. Can you please check with GUE and see whether OCU air will meet their rigorous standards. As I said this will be very interesting to know so we can compare.

Nope I was on no secret mission when I was looking to get a fill for my tanks to dive at the cottage near Kingston. That intake at NTD with the 180 degree elbow on the top is an inch and a half in diameter and somewhere between seven and eight feet tall. It was a good foot and a half about the top of the shed. Ok the compressor 'originated' (therefore 'used' not purchased new) from Downsview military base and it is still on its military trailor. Check for yourself there are three OUC certs which is far better than one a year but still not nearly as good as using a Canadian accredited lab as the MOL requires. I believe PADI does require quarterly test though. As for the hand packed filters that is what I was told at the time. Maybe things have changed for simplicity reasons. Cartriges certainly are easier than hand packs. It would be very easy to check though as MOL requires a compressor log be kept on site with all compressor maintenance documented. Any customer can request to see this. Most don't as like air certs they don't have a clue about what they mean. In the end I used only one tank and didn't need a fill. There is nothing defamatory when fact is stated. I look at the intake diameter and length as regardless of certification a narrow intake diameter and long length will starve the compressor and increase the likelihood of overheating and the breakdown of oils which can saturated the desicant and render the charcoal and hopcalite useless. I was pleased to see a very short intake and had I needed a fill in Kingston out of the three shops NTD had the best setup and monitoring despite the use of OUC.

Now though that you know there are better alternatives I will eagerly await your analysis of the air testing situation and will hope to hear your recommendation to NTD that they switch to accredited testing for the 'A' team. It not only makes good health sense but good business sense too. Divers want to purchase air from accredited air stations and will glady pay an extra .50 cents or a dollar to have proper testing.

Puffer

 

[Jimmy B]

Lots of info here, just incase your all getting your heads full and think that your're getting "bad air" in Ontario. Just remember that Ontario has one of the highest standards in the World.

Compared to other spots where you're diving. Now remember, (I'm stressing this). The following is the National Standard for a couple of Countries.

CDA US EUR (Low - High) MEX
Carbon Monoxide PPM 5 20 10-50 NS
Carbon Dioxide PPM 500 500 500-1000 NS
Hydrocarbons PPM 25 25 NS-30 NS
Trichlorotrifluorethylen PPM Only Canada Tests
Dichlorodfiluorethylen PPM Only Canada Tests
Cloorodifluoromethane PPM Only Canada Tests
Nitrogen Dioxide PPM .3 NS NS - .5 NS
Oil mg/M3 3 5 .3 - 5 NS
Max particle Size Free ND N/A - 50 Microns NS
Water Vapor mg/M3 50 ND NS - 100 NS
Odour None NO NO - NIL NS
Other ND ND ND - <1% NS
O2 Content 20-22 20-22 20-23 NS

ND = No Data
NS = No Standard
NO = Not objectable foul smelling

The way I understand it also is that this is the National standard read lowest standard allowed in that Country.

JB