"Allowed" to dive

[turnerjd]

How would GUE divers be treated in France? I am genuinely curious what the perception of them is, over there.

With a Gallic shrug of the shoulders, a scratch of the head, a twirling of the mustache, and a 'who are they, they're not French'. Show some deco qualifications and they are happy. Unfortunately they have the law to work with, so if you can help them fit you somewhere into their legal framework then you will be fine.

In general a lot of the way the French treat other divers depends on their attitude. You rock up and make like your gods gift to diving, then suddenly they won't speak English....... Similarly, if you are nice and friendly, and help them work out what you are qualified to do, and will accept a checkout dive then you will be nicely looked after. Just remember that the RSTC has no foothold (or any legal way to get one), and they consider diving to be a real sport rather than a leisure activity, so your most basic French diver will be doing (or at least qualified to do) deco dives, and most will have the basic skills on a par with GUE fundies as a minimum........ Almost all French divers participate actively in a club, and will be going to weekly pool sessions, swimming several kms per week as well as also having good freediving skills and cardiovascular fitness.

There are some splendid dives to do here, and well worth the administrative hassle.

Jon

 

[supergaijin]

they consider diving to be a real sport rather than a leisure activity,

Often true.

so your most basic French diver will be doing (or at least qualified to do) deco dives,

Not true at all- the most basic CMAS 1* is not even certified to dive independently.

and most will have the basic skills on a par with GUE fundies as a minimum

And that made me snort my coffee!

 

[Diver0001]

You rock up and make like your gods gift to diving, then suddenly they won't speak English.......

Arrogance begets arrogance and the French can turn it into an art form!

Just remember that the RSTC has no foothold (or any legal way to get one),

Acutally, the EU formed norms for sport diving qualification that apply to all EU countries. They're not laws until ratified by the French government but as far as I know there is a legal framework in place and the EU norms closely match the WRSTC minimum standards.

and they consider diving to be a real sport rather than a leisure activity, so your most basic French diver will be doing (or at least qualified to do) deco dives, and most will have the basic skills on a par with GUE fundies as a minimum........

Since the question being answered was how GUE divers are received in France I've never heard of anyone with a GUE qualification having trouble with people not recognizing the qualification (give or take the need for some paper work). As for being trained like GUE divers I think this picture of an FFESSM diver diving the wreck of what I believe is the "Rubis" at 41 metres pretty much speaks for itself.

R..

 

[turnerjd]

Arrogance begets arrogance and the French can turn it into an art form!

- tell me about it - I married one of them........

Acutally, the EU formed norms for sport diving qualification that apply to all EU countries. They're not laws until ratified by the French government but as far as I know there is a legal framework in place and the EU norms closely match the WRSTC minimum standards.

Yup, and then you have the French...... They don't recognize the EU norms, and have their own system.

---------- Post added August 28th, 2013 at 11:27 PM ----------

As for being trained like GUE divers I think this picture of an FFESSM diver diving the wreck of what I believe is the "Rubis" at 41 metres pretty much speaks for itself.

R..

You can't judge a whole system by one photo........ The divers trained in my club, even at N1 level all have darn good buoyancy and trim. If they were in such a position it would be specially for the photo.

 

[Diver0001]

You can't judge a whole system by one photo........ The divers trained in my club, even at N1 level all have darn good buoyancy and trim. If they were in such a position it would be specially for the photo.

Well yeah, I'm sure it was just for the photo but I can't resist scoring on an open net

It sounds like you have found a good club, actually. It's a nice change of pace to hear someone sounding satisfied with their training

R..

---------- Post added August 28th, 2013 at 11:54 PM ----------

Yup, and then you have the French...... They don't recognize the EU norms, and have their own system.

Well yeah, that's true. They're allowed to ignore them although unless they're superseded by national laws then they'll still usually be referenced in case of accident as a way to form a legal lowest-common denominator, even if it can't lead to prosecution.

What it also does is create a defacto legal beach-head for competitors trying to open up a market. It may not roll out the red carpet but cuts through some red-tape.

R..

 

[turnerjd]

And that made me snort my coffee!

The iPad just ate my reply, so typing it back will by necessity be much shorter.

In my club we actually get our beginners to watch some of the GUE style videos on YouTube for buoyancy, and aim to get them to repeat them, and after about 9 months in the pool they are doing that, similarly in OW. Equally, after 8 or 9 sessions in the 15m pool their ascent and descent control is pretty darned good, horizontal, and the will be doing a lot that simply with their lungs. They also start doing exercises such as unresponsive diver lifts from about 10-15m slowing down and arriving at a dead stop at 3m, requiring far more buoyancy control than many divers have.

Ditto for things like frog kicks, and swimming backwards, perhaps that is specific to our club simply because here we have such crappy vis at our local sites. Kicking up silt on an OW dives pre- qualification is a distinct fail.

Don't confuse the CMAS 1* not diving by themselves with the French system. The French aim to have them ready to start working towards proper deco diving immediately after their N1 qualification.

Jon

---------- Post added August 29th, 2013 at 12:22 AM ----------

It sounds like you have found a good club, actually. It's a nice change of pace to hear someone sounding satisfied with their training

R..

What it also does is create a defacto legal beach-head for competitors trying to open up a market. It may not roll out the red carpet but cuts through some red-tape.

R..

Yeah I've found a good club...... Even if I was forcefully assimilated into the FFESSM after my initial BSAC and PADI training.

However, I am not sure about the beach-head, as any competitor would come up against the French commercial instructor problem (the brevets d'état). Even the powerfull German, Austrian, Swiss and Italian ski federations haven't been able to breach that enabling their instructor qualifications to be recognized here...... Any instructor in any sport wanting to be paid has to have this state certificate, and there are no exceptions.

France doesn't seem ready to abandon even a single word from the 10,000 or so pages of the code du sport.

Jon

 

[supergaijin]

In my club we actually get our beginners to watch some of the GUE style videos on YouTube for buoyancy, and aim to get them to repeat them, and after about 9 months in the pool they are doing that, similarly in OW. Equally, after 8 or 9 sessions in the 15m pool their ascent and descent control is pretty darned good, horizontal, and the will be doing a lot that simply with their lungs. They also start doing exercises such as unresponsive diver lifts from about 10-15m slowing down and arriving at a dead stop at 3m, requiring far more buoyancy control than many divers have.

Don't confuse your dive club with the French system

Don't confuse the CMAS 1* not diving by themselves with the French system. The French aim to have them ready to start working towards proper deco diving immediately after their N1 qualification.

I responded to you statement:
your most basic French diver will be doing (or at least qualified to do) deco dives

Now I don't quite actually understand what you mean a 'basic French diver' or the "French System". Myself, speaking French, having a French wife, having worked in Djibouti under the FFESSM style training, I do understand certain things... but what do you mean by 'the French System'? CMAS? FFESSM? A direct blood-relation of Cousteau and Falco? We may well be talking at crosspoints.

 

[turnerjd]

Now I don't quite actually understand what you mean a 'basic French diver' or the "French System". Myself, speaking French, having a French wife, having worked in Djibouti under the FFESSM style training, I do understand certain things... but what do you mean by 'the French System'? CMAS? FFESSM? A direct blood-relation of Cousteau and Falco? We may well be talking at crosspoints.

Crosspoints - I agree!

French system - that imposed upon us by law in the code du sport. FFESSM, FSGT, ANMP are just agencies that issue certifications under this legally imposed system. Only applicable in mainland France, or the DOM-TOM where the CdS applies.

Basic French diver - just a normal guy (or gal) that is part of a club, and dives semi-regularly. Not a fanatic, but not a vacation only diver either (as they are not that common at all), has done enough training to be happy, but not overly keen to go on to a N3 or a N4 or initiateur, and is not a depth freak as most of them are.

Where in France is the wife from? I married une Grenobloise.........

Jon

 

[Storker]

the most basic CMAS 1* is not even certified to dive independently.

Sorry, but this sounds, um... (*checking sub-forum guidelines about language*)... not quite right. I suggest you (re)read what CMAS themselves say about the One Star Diver Training Programme

4. Competencies of a certified CMAS One Star Diver
4.1 A CMAS One Star Diver shall be trained such that when assessed by a CMAS Instructor, he shall
be deemed to have sufficient knowledge, skill and experience to procure air, equipment, and other
diving services and to plan, conduct, and log open-water dives that do not require mandatory inwater
decompression stops, without the supervision of a CMAS Instructor or CMAS Dive Leader,
when properly equipped and accompanied by another certified diver of at least the same level,
provided the diving activities undertaken, the diving conditions and the diving area are similar, equal
or better to those in which training was received.
4.2 A CMAS One Star Diver is qualified to dive within the following parameters:
4.2.1 To use air as a breathing gas;
4.2.2 To make dives which do not require mandatory in-water decompression stops;
4.2.3 To make dives during normal daylight hours;
4.2.4 To dive in environments where direct vertical access to the surface is possible;
4.2.5 To dive only when appropriate support is available at the surface; and
4.2.6 To dive under conditions that are equal or better than the conditions in which he was
trained.
4.3 If he has received additional training he can dive to dive to a recommended maximum depth of
twenty (20) meters with other SCUBA divers of the same level.

(bolding mine)
Cite

BTW and speaking as a PADI certified diver, the average CMAS 1* diver has generally received a more comprehensive training than the average PADI OW diver. For a cite for that opinion, check the CMAS/PADI agreement for transfer between the agencies

 

[supergaijin]

Crosspoints - I agree!
French system - that imposed upon us by law in the code du sport. FFESSM, FSGT, ANMP are just agencies that issue certifications under this legally imposed system. Only applicable in mainland France, or the DOM-TOM where the CdS applies.
Basic French diver - just a normal guy (or gal) that is part of a club, and dives semi-regularly. Not a fanatic, but not a vacation only diver either (as they are not that common at all), has done enough training to be happy, but not overly keen to go on to a N3 or a N4 or initiateur, and is not a depth freak as most of them are.

I guess I have the perspective from someone on the outside as I see plenty of French divers who do not dive regularly in France... but then I am working almost exclusively with tourists.

Where in France is the wife from? I married une Grenobloise.........Jon

C'est marrant, ma femme vient de Dieulefit dans la Drome.

Sorry, but this sounds, um... (*checking sub-forum guidelines about language*)... not quite right. I suggest you (re)read what CMAS themselves say about the One Star Diver Training Programme

(bolding mine)
Cite

BTW and speaking as a PADI certified diver, the average CMAS 1* diver has generally received a more comprehensive training than the average PADI OW diver. For a cite for that opinion, check the CMAS/PADI agreement for transfer between the agencies

I stand corrected... but now I'm wondering what the heck we were teaching in Djibouti. There was no tables training until Niveau 2, and no compass navigation work. Those were the two differences that I saw with CMAS.

I am yet to see a CMAS diver even approaching the skill set of a GUE fundies diver.