anyone want the truth and science on inwater recompression? It's incredibly effective

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GUE has a bit about IWR in their Tech 2 curriculum. Goes into risk/reward, some procedures, considerations, and a discussion on when it might (and might not) be a reasonable idea. I found it interesting, but I hope to never have to use it.
 
Fwiw had 2 tec divers on the boat 190fsw 10 or 15 min bot time. Extremely rapid ascent. Diver one surfaced, took o2 on the boat, CG ride to shore, and 3 chamber rides.
Diver two surfaced with his buddy same profile, immediately went back down started his deco over from his deep stop to end of his plan, surfaced. We threw him another bottle of 50, blew that down for an hour. He was having beers with us after the dive.
Will this work for every situation? No
Would I do IWR if possible? Yes, I like beer.
 
... his buddy same profile, immediately went back down started his deco over from his deep stop to end of his plan, surfaced. We threw him another bottle of 50, blew that down for an hour.

IWR? .... or omitted deco procedure?

Again... being aware of what is, and what is not, IWR...

IWR = treatment of diagnosed life threatening DCS, when no other option is available.

Omitted Deco = Rapid/immediate re-descent and completion of some/all deco stops, with padding (normally 1.5x or longer).

Jumping back in the water for some more O2 time because you got an ache isn't IWR. All the articles mentioned in this thread categorically state the parameters where IWS could be an option. Those parameters include serious DCS (not pain only/type 1). They also categorically state what IWS is.
 
A french science institute, before going in a very remote location where chamber was not available at all for days, perhaps weeks, designed a very precise IWR protocol. Of course the boat was equipped with all the aformentionned equipment (O2, full mask, warm suits etc...) and the protocol involved tender divers relaying themselves etc...
They did not have to use it on the field, but beforehands they conducted tests with doppler echos in order to evaluate the effectiveness of the different tested protocols. I don't have this information at hand, but it highlights that IWR can be the only solution, and that scientific approach to it is necessary.
In the long run, perhaps leisure diver operations and agencies will build on these works to improve the DCS hit response.
 
If you've got a hot water suit, full face mask (or a band mask...or helmet), surface-supplied air, and a couple t-tanks of aviator's O2, go for it.

Hold on there bucky, I don't believe you have the experience to comment so definitively on this.

There are difficult and challenging logistics, certainly, but when you are faced with a really long evac or an immediate re-immersion where you can treat root causality and not just already damaged tissue, it's worth considering carefully. Unfortunately there is no training available, just some papers and tribal apocrypha.

It's a rare margin, but the equipment listed is what is called for to attempt IWR. The astronauts of the Apollo 13 mission didn't train to adapt a CO2 scrubber out of duct tape either. However, when you need to save someone from near permanent neurological damage, then you gotta do what you gotta do.
I will jump in ahead of Rookers and anticipate his reply.

If you check the various established protocols for IWR, you will see that the equipment you list is not necessary. A full face mask and O2 are needed, but not the amount you suggest. The knowledge of how to do it is absolutely necessary. Rookers knows this because he has participated in dives in marginal conditions and been prepared with both equipment and protocols for IWR in the case it was needed. It was indeed needed on more than one occasion, and it was successful.
 
IP will be a little low with that setup due to the lack of depth compensation at the 1st stage.

!


I assure you, it works....just fine!!! Been doing it for a few years.

---------- Post added February 27th, 2013 at 09:11 AM ----------

An assumption based upon...



You didn't dive on many other boats then, or many other locations away from home, huh?

Hardly fair to blame me for your minuscule sample size... :shakehead:

95% of my diving is local. Almost every local boat I dive is set up for this. When I travel - the dives I do are so basic, this would not likely be a concern.

---------- Post added February 27th, 2013 at 09:16 AM ----------

IWR? .... or omitted deco procedure?

Again... being aware of what is, and what is not, IWR...

IWR = treatment of diagnosed life threatening DCS, when no other option is available.

Omitted Deco = Rapid/immediate re-descent and completion of some/all deco stops, with padding (normally 1.5x or longer).

Jumping back in the water for some more O2 time because you got an ache isn't IWR. All the articles mentioned in this thread categorically state the parameters where IWS could be an option. Those parameters include serious DCS (not pain only/type 1). They also categorically state what IWS is.



You are redefining IWR for the sake of a better argument???? Who wins by you doing that??? IWR does NOT have to be "diagnosed, life threatening"

We all know that once DCS symptoms start- they can and often do take a progressive route. That being said - ANY TIME you have a diver with symptoms grab another bottle of O2 and head back under the boat, you are participating in IWR.....If those symptoms are skin rash, sore shoulder, or completely paralyzed........doesnt matter - your still participating in IWR the second he/she hits the water and heads back down.




Non Symptomatic omitted deco - different story - BUT, once omitted deco results in a symptom and you decide to head back under the boat - its IWR any way you cut it.


I would say that yes, the articles are specifically about more severe cases - BUT - dont kid yourself. Once symptoms start and you decide to head back in - you are taking the same risks.

Having this conversation and trying to pretend that the debate is only applicable to SEVERE cases, is counter intuitive, since by its very nature - most of the field practiced (albeit it dangerous or not) IWR - is an attempt to stop symptom progression from non life threatening to something more serious.
 
You are redefining IWR for the sake of a better argument???? IWR does NOT have to be "diagnosed, life threatening"

In context with the article referenced on this thread. Did you read it before joining the discussion?

Example:

The extent and severity of the DCS symptoms are also important factors. Whether or not mild DCS symptoms (i.e. pain-only) should be treated is not certain. One perspective is that such symptoms are not likely to leave the diver permanently disabled, and thus the risks associated with attempted IWR would not be worth taking. Furthermore, individuals with such symptoms are prime candidates for "making a bad situation worse" (as was demonstrated in Case #10).


Conversely, the risks of submerging severely incapacitated divers might override the potential benefits of IWR when serious neurological manifestations are evident. Edmonds (1993) recommends against the practice of IWR in situations "where the patient has either epileptic convulsions or clouding of consciousness."The death of the two divers in Case #3 might have resulted from drowning due to loss of consciousness from severe neurological symptoms...


...The immediacy of recompression may be particularly advantageous if DCS symptoms develop soon after surfacing from a deep dive, and when these symptoms are neurological and "progressive" (sensu Francis, et al., 1993). Under such circumstances, the condition of the DCS victim can rapidly degenerate, and permanent damage may ensue in the absence of immediate recompression. However, it is also particularly critical in these circumstances to monitor the condition of the treated diver with a tender close by.

We all know that once DCS symptoms start- they can and often do take a progressive route. That being said - ANY TIME you have a diver with symptoms grab another bottle of O2 and head back under the boat, you are participating in IWR.....If those symptoms are skin rash, sore shoulder, or completely paralyzed........doesnt matter - your still participating in IWR the second he/she hits the water and heads back down.

Yes...it can be progressive. Which, to me, indicates observation and neurological examination before a decision is made. Pyle agrees...

Further to that, the article and other documents on the subject do overwhelmingly suggest that IWR is risky. That risk has to be balanced against the DCS threat to the diver. Risk of death underwater via complications has to be balanced against the risk presented by DCS. Severity of DCS has to be gauged before a sound course of action is determined.

The key point of note: DCS can be progressive. IWR is potentially indicated if DCS is actually progressive (and neurological).


Non Symptomatic omitted deco - different story - BUT, once omitted deco results in a symptom and you decide to head back under the boat - its IWR any way you cut it.

Ok... agreed. I've seen it refered to as 'informal' IWR, at best. In the context of the article however, formal IWR is presented as a do-or-die potential resolution, with definite risks, when no other resolution is feasible within the timescale for likely death or severe disability.

Again...reiterating the point that IWR presents known and severe risks...and that Pyle et al consider the decision process leading to potential IWR to be based upon a formal risk versus reward decision. Risk of death from IWR should be balanced against risk of death with no other treatment feasible.

BUT - dont kid yourself. Once symptoms start and you decide to head back in - you are taking the same risks.

Agreed. It's a serious decision to make. That's why I am attempting to differentiate between what the article states...and what some thread participants (not you) seem to be imagining.

From wikipedia: Although in-water recompression is regarded as risky, and to be avoided, there is increasing evidence that technical divers who surface and demonstrate mild DCS symptoms may often get back into the water and breathe pure oxygen at a depth 20 feet/6 meters for a period of time to seek to alleviate the symptoms. This trend is noted in paragraph 3.6.5 of DAN's 2008 accident report

Having this conversation and trying to pretend that the debate is only applicable to SEVERE cases, is counter intuitive, since by its very nature - most of the field practiced (albeit it dangerous or not) IWR - is an attempt to stop symptom progression from non life threatening to something more serious.

In one case, we have divers jumping back in because of a 'twinge' etc, with no further though. In the other case, we have a period of observation, a neuro-exam, before progressive can be diagnosed. Once progressive is indicated... and victim deterioration is readily predictable... then we have a case for IWR.

As Pyle states: "This method differs from other published IWR methods in several respects. First of all, it includes a 10-minute period breathing 100% oxygen at the surface prior to re-entry into the water. This period allows for assessment of conditions as to whether IWR is appropriate, and provides a brief test to indicate whether surface oxygen alone will be sufficient to resolve symptoms".

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. That's what I was trying to communicate..
 
I guess my point is that the information seems to be contradictive. Why wait until the symptoms progress? If you are symptomatic - I would make the assumption that they ARE going to progress. Get on O2 and head for the barn IMMEDIATELY (99% of the time)- OR - grab O2 andget back in the water before more damage is done.

Research has shown time and time again, that faster treatment is better.


This is a tough debate - since, as I stated, I can see both sides equally.

I am a little skewed due to the number of people I know, that wont admit it on a forum, that have gone back in the water after initial symptoms, and emerge trouble free. Yes - still risky - but.....
 
Most people doing technical diving are more willing to attempt IWR than any random person on SB...

Once you realize how challenging actually getting to an operational chamber willing to treat divers is, then you start planning for IWR more as a primary DCS plan than as a contingency. For instance there is only 1 chamber in FL willing to treat divers at this time. If you get bent on a boat in the Keys you are a many hours from Pensacola and that delay (above and beyond the additional delay once you arrive) will lead to increasing tissue damage and possibly permanent paralysis or death.

Myself as well as many other divers are undocumented data points (above and beyond Pyle's article) as to the efficacy of IWR. You do not need ppO2s of 3.0 or full face masks etc You can do alot with what you have, even if its not a final treatment and its just reducing but not eliminating the gas load prior to transport.

That said given the general level of DCS knowledge & treatment, I can't recommmend IWR for the casual recreational diver.
 
Once you realize how challenging actually getting to an operational chamber willing to treat divers is, then you start planning for IWR more as a primary DCS plan than as a contingency. For instance there is only 1 chamber in FL willing to treat divers at this time. If you get bent on a boat in the Keys you are a many hours from Pensacola and that delay (above and beyond the additional delay once you arrive) will lead to increasing tissue damage and possibly permanent paralysis or death.

It is so sad to have to say this, but that is indeed the reality. If you are a technical diver planning dives that could possibly lead to DCS, you have to think about much more than the location of the nearest recompression chamber. The nearest recompression chamber may only offer its services during scheduled hours of operation. The nearest recompression chamber may simply refuse to provide those services for divers, for reasons that I cannot explain. (This is definitely true, as you say, in Florida.) Thus, people who are within minutes of a major hospital with a state of the art recompression chamber may be no closer to treatment for DCS than someone diving, as I often do, out on the prairie of New Mexico.
 

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