Appropriate to ask for a refund? Trip report from my first salt water dive!

[Wookie]

If I'm paying for a liveaboard, chances are it is written as "X nights with up to Y number of dives", so if I don't dive, whatever, because technically you are paying for nights aboard. But most dive boats I've seen they advertise 2-tanks of diving, not a boat ride. So if the company doesn't deliver the dives, I'd expect a refund.

So if you went on a NC day boat, and 2 of the divers were on rebreathers doing 3 hour run times, and you didn't get home till midnight, would you expect a refund? They want 2 dives too.

Folks need to be flexible here. The guy got his dive, it just wasn't as long as he would have liked, he came back with a steel 120 with 1500 PSI, he could have stayed for 10 more minutes. He got 30 minutes of a 40 minute dive. I would contend he got his dive. Maybe in that last 10 minutes a white shark would have bitten his leg off. Should he tip the DM extra because he still has 2 legs?

How would you calculate his refund? Would it be based on the number of minutes he didn't dive, maybe a 1/4 of a 1/2 of the dive trip? As an operator, I can tell you that it costs nothing to stop the boat and put divers in the water. The expense is getting the boat to the dive site, and the OP got both dives. The OP finished his dive, too, otherwise we'd be reading in the accidents and incidents. So, the boat went to the dive site, so the expenses were made, the diver got in the water, meaning that the contract was filled, and the dive was cut short. I don't see the operator did anything wrong here. If anyone owes the OP, it's the dive guide who didn't fulfill his contract.

Remember, I'm looking at this as the shop, boat, and DM being separate entities. Until the OP comes back and tells us how it is, we all have to make assumptions.

Now, lets say you were on a liveaboard. You make the first 2 dives of the trip and your regulator explodes. Man, you just had it serviced, and don't have a spare. This happens, by the way. People sit out the rest of the trip. Would you expect a refund from the liveaboard operator? They got you to the dive site, as contracted. Would you expect a refund from the shop? Sure, they didn't properly repair your reg (or maybe, just maybe TSA dropped it when checking it, or some ham handed baggage guy threw it across the asphalt) and you lost the trip. They didn't guarantee a dive trip, and they will happily fix your reg. Who exactly do you expect a refund from in that situation? Worse, you come on the boat and get the sniffles the first night. The liveaboard operator goes into panic mode and starts wiping down the entire boat with chlorox wipes. 2 other people (strangers) get it on day 4. They want you to refund them for their missed diving.....

 

[AdivingBel]

At the other end of the spectrum of what's expected from "professionals," a divemaster similarly doesn't guarantee specific results... As I said previously, I think the expectation is that we divers shoulder some of the risk that the DM won't be able to provide the specific results we had hoped for....

I agree that the DM/paid guide doesn't control the weather, currents, or how many pretty fish I see. I do expect the DM not be the cause of missed or abbriviated dives if he accepts payment. It's not the end of the world and there can be lots of grey area, but there is an expectation of service for payment provided. The ocean is always going to be there and there is always another dive, but it goes both ways. There is also always going to be another diver to be guided. IMO.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I agree that the DM/paid guide doesn't control the weather, currents, or how many pretty fish I see. I do expect the DM not be the cause of missed or abbriviated dives if he accepts payment. It's not the end of the world and there can be lots of grey area, but there is an expectation of service for payment provided. The ocean is always going to be there and there is always another dive, but it goes both ways. There is also always going to be another diver to be guided. IMO.

Then you disagree with my premise that a DM is providing a professional service, not a service like changing the oil in your car. Fair enough. We have two different points of view.

 

[Skittl1321]

See my post just above yours, where I argue that a DM should be considered a professional providing a professional service, not someone merely selling a product. I think there is a difference.

Okay- then. He's a professional who didn't provide a service that was paid for. If I went to the doctor and she suddenly got ill halfway through the appointment, I wouldn't expect to pay for that appointment. Even if materials were used during the first half of the appointment that she/her office would then need to cover the cost for.

Whether the dive is a product, or the professional is providing a service- what was paid for was not provided.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Okay- then. He's a professional who didn't provide a service that was paid for. If I went to the doctor and she suddenly got ill halfway through the appointment, I wouldn't expect to pay for that appointment. Even if materials were used during the first half of the appointment that she/her office would then need to cover the cost for.

Whether the dive is a product, or the professional is providing a service- what was paid for was not provided.

But you would be expected to pay for that appointment. You pay a professional a "fee" (not a "price") for his or her time and skill, applied in a way that meets whatever standard is applicable in that profession. You are NOT paying X dollars in exchange for the completion of a service to certain predetermined specifications. It may be true that you pay a doctor to perform a procedure, but many aspects of how that procedure is performed remain in the discretion of the doctor, including whether the doctor decides in the middle of the procedure that it is not feasible to complete the original goal. And you WILL be expected pay for that procedure. I will argue that a product, a service, and a professional service are three different things, and the customer (or client/patient, in the case of a professional service) needs to have different expectations for each.

 

[Wookie]

Okay- then. He's a professional who didn't provide a service that was paid for. If I went to the doctor and she suddenly got ill halfway through the appointment, I wouldn't expect to pay for that appointment. Even if materials were used during the first half of the appointment that she/her office would then need to cover the cost for.

Whether the dive is a product, or the professional is providing a service- what was paid for was not provided.

What if instead of getting sick, she had to answer a code? What if she had completed every part of the visit, whatever it was, and the only thing left was to answer your question about ear infections, or whatever?

Are there grey areas, or must any professional service be completed to your satisfaction before payment is rendered? Doctors mostly schedule in 7.5 minute blocks, BTW. That includes the time to get from another exam room to your exam room. If she finished your query in 5.2 minutes, would you make her stay for the remaining 2.3? Because you (or your insurance company) will be paying for the whole time anyway. Or is it allowable for her to make up part of her schedule using that time, or maybe take a pee break?

 

[Skittl1321]

But you would be expected to pay for that appointment.

The time it happened to me, I did NOT pay for the appointment. It was as if it had never happened; because while we were halfway through the appointment, what she had done to that point was not enough to complete the test that was needed. I paid for the make-up appointment the doctor scheduled for me.

Now if the doctor decided mid appointment she couldn't complete the original goal because of something wrong with me, then I'd expect to pay. But in the case I'm describing (and the case of the DM)- it was a personal issue that prevented her from completing her job, and thus she did not charge me.

If the DM called the dive because he deemed that the currents were to difficult to safely guide the inexperienced diver, then I'd expect the diver to pay. But the DM called the dive due to his own issue. He did not provide the service that was paid for.

I'll also note that the OP is asking if it is appropriate to ASK for a refund. There is absolutely nothing wrong in this situation with him ASKING. To me, it wouldn't be worth it to throw a giant tantrum if the dive op says no.

 

[TMHeimer]

It's getting complicated. When I taught music lessons privately and I had to cancel a lesson I would either reschedule the lesson or not charge the student. Conversely, if the student cancelled on me I would again try to reschedule and if not possible I would charge the student. Does that help?

 

[AdivingBel]

Then you disagree with my premise that a DM is providing a professional service, not a service like changing the oil in your car. Fair enough. We have two different points of view.

I agree we have different points of view, which is fine. I'm not sure that your definition of a professional service w/o expectectations is completely valid. I agree the DM provides a service but he has to actually provide the service not just attempt to provide the service, specifically if his failure to provide the service is due to something within his pervue to control and impedes the ultimate goal. Maybe it's all semantics and your previous assertion that we have different points of view is good enough.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I agree we have different points of view, which is fine. I'm not sure that your definition of a professional service w/o expectectations is completely valid. I agree the DM provides a service but he has to actually provide the service not just attempt to provide the service, especially if his failure to provide the service impedes the ultimate goal. Maybe it's all semantics and your previous assertion that we have different points of view is good enough.

Yes, it is most certainly an argument over the definition of "professional" and whether a DM really is a "professional." If one buys into my argument that the DM is a professional, then an "attempt to provide the service"--done to the requisite professional DM standards--should be all that is required to earn the DM his or her fee. If your lawyer "attempts" to win your case but doesn't, you still pay the lawyer's fee (unless it's a contingency fee arrangement, which is sort of the exception to the general rule that the client pays for the lawyer's efforts). I could go on, but I think we are beating a dead horse.