Appropriate to ask for a refund? Trip report from my first salt water dive!

[mrdre]

cocoajoe, Skittl1321--To be honest you guys don't know what you're talking about. Some people like myself are prone to serious cramping--once I cramped in both arms & legs at the same time on the same dive. A severe cramp in one leg can easily end a dive ASAP. Potassium pills cut my cramping by 80%.

Then you should warn your buddies of such problem. Moreover if you are a DM and took money, then you should definitely make your customer know and if it happens - issue a refund and apology and maybe work out some sort of credit for a future dive with the same OP. That's the proper customer service.

 

[AdivingBel]

I'd keep things in perspective. This was the OP's first ever ocean dive, not his last ever ocean dive. ...

Very good point. It's great that the poster is seeking insight to the situation from folks that have been there before as opposed to going off half cocked. It seems like he handled it fine. None of this is the end of the world or any reson to act the customer from hell.

To me the interesting parts of the question is dive pro vs dive buddy and the affiliation of the dive pro with the dive op. To me the thumb the dive rule with no repercussions takes a different turn in this situation. Of course you want everyone to be safe, but the professional has to realize they were contracted for a service. The customer shouldn't even have to request a refund. It should be offered. Same goes for compensation from the dive op if the guide was working directly for the op and payment was made to the op. The customer shouldn't even have to ask and if offered, the op looks like a hero. Win-win.

 

[spoolin01]

I think this thread has been a fairly concise recap of both sides in the too-frequent tensions between the dive service consumers and (some) industry service providers. There's common sense in what you say, but also to me a fairly facile bias.

I began making responses to your specific assertions, but instead I'll just say that I don't think the case can be made or that it should be accepted by the diving public, generally, that the disappointment expressed by the OP in his not-uncommon-enough experience is

a) by definition or even materially his fault
b) the result of unrealistic or abnormal expectations
c) materially the result of miscommunication. If it reflects a common difference in normative perspective, that's a problem (and not so much on his part, from where I stand).
d) materially the result of circumstances beyond the control of the service provider. So, while sh!t happens, that wasn't so much the case here. I don't go for the "thumbing trumps all" view.

Let's be fair in one respect... it's quite likely the second DM had no idea that the first DM committed him to diving with the OP. Yes, it was incumbent upon DM1 to communicate that fact to DM2, but as someone else mentioned above, it would have been advisable for the OP to confirm the change in plans with the second DM.
I would bet that if you did an analysis of all stories posted on SB about problems people have had with dive boat operators - DM didn't give a tour, boat went to different wreck than advertised, they wanted to see my nitrox card, insta-buddy didn't follow my plan, captain didn't allow solo-diving, whatever - that 99% of those problems would have been completely obviated by better communication between the two parties.
Yes, in the perfect world we'd have great, service-oriented boat and LDS operators with phenomenal business acumen, doing a fantastic job of anticipating - and meeting - their customers wants, needs, and desires. In such a utopian dive industry, it would not be incumbent upon the customer to be in charge of the necessary communication to ensure their wants, needs, and desires are understood.
I find the Venn Diagram below to be a useful reference when you're discussing any specific group of people and why they behave and act the way that they do:

The reality is that the dive industry is not comprised of "business people" but rather it is largely comprised of people whose sole qualification is that they are dumb enough to try to make a living doing what they - and we - love to do.

God bless these people - because we'd all be on one big extended surface interval if not for them - but divers need to understand and accept this reality. Doing so means that divers need to take on greater responsibility for the outcome of their interactions with people in the dive industry.

Best regards,

Ray Purkis

 

[TMHeimer]

Then you should warn your buddies of such problem. Moreover if you are a DM and took money, then you should definitely make your customer know and if it happens - issue a refund and apology and maybe work out some sort of credit for a future dive with the same OP. That's the proper customer service.

I always warn all buddies of the problem (as I said, the potassium pills elliminate 80% of my cramping and I haven't had a "serious" incident since). I don't do charters. At the classes I assist on I give a speech about the many methods of dealing with cramping that go beyond the fin stretch maneuver. Cramps have not affected my ability to assist with courses (well, not yet, then again I'm 60 and could have a heart attack or whatever, as could anyone, I suppose).

But I can see your point about taking $ directly from a customer and then not being able to function as a buddy or guide. I would refund the customer as that would only be fair (and see if the dive op could compensate him further if possible). As well, I don't think giving back the standard $20 fee would exactly break the bank. If it happened more than say once in a blue moon I would stop doing charters.

Diving and cramping seem to go together. This past weekend a young husband & wife team of student divers had cramps (leg & neck). The instructor had quite severe back cramping (even I haven't ever cramped there). He had to take it easy for bit. Myself and another DM were present. The instructor is a well respected one who is under 30 and in great shape, and dives even more regularly than me.

 

[mrdre]

I always warn all buddies of the problem (as I said, the potassium pills elliminate 80% of my cramping and I haven't had a "serious" incident since). I don't do charters. At the classes I assist on I give a speech about the many methods of dealing with cramping that go beyond the fin stretch maneuver. Cramps have not affected my ability to assist with courses (well, not yet, then again I'm 60 and could have a heart attack or whatever, as could anyone, I suppose).

But I can see your point about taking $ directly from a customer and then not being able to function as a buddy or guide. I would refund the customer as that would only be fair (and see if the dive op could compensate him further if possible). If it happened more than say once in a blue moon I would stop doing charters.....

Well.. yeah.. "you" I meant mainly a hypothetical DM. Of course if my buddy has cramps and doesn't feel comfortable, I would have absolutely no problem and no complains about ending the dive. Ocean isn't going anywhere. But I'd have issues with paid DMs.

I just seen too much of those. Some DMs and dive ops are really trying their best to serve their customers. I wouldn't even want my money back if they have problems. It happened few times, when the engine on the operator's boat broke. We spent the whole day on the water, and it was tough, I often get seasick. We got burned under the sun, dehydrated, we didn't bring enough water, the dive sucked big time. Everybody was so p*ssed. But we paid full amount and tipped the crew very good, because on the other dives they did their best to make us happy. On that particular dive they just had bad luck, but they tried everything, we saw that they really tried their best.

From the other side there are plenty of businesses in touristy areas who rely on "one-time tourist" model. Millions of tourists pass through, so what if they are unhappy and get ripped off? Many more will come. And if the bad name spreads and business slows down, then what? Just change the name and continue. In such cases being a "customer from hell" is only doing a huge favor for other tourists. In this case if DM really took care of the OP, made sure that the OP had nice second dive, then I would even tip him. But DM showed no interest in serving the customer. I think just "voting with your pocket" is not enough, the captain should know about this, and the captain should realize that the bad reviews will follow. Then he will make sure it won't happen with the next diver.

 

[TMHeimer]

Well.. yeah.. "you" I meant mainly a hypothetical DM. Of course if my buddy has cramps and doesn't feel comfortable, I would have absolutely no problem and no complains about ending the dive. Ocean isn't going anywhere. But I'd have issues with paid DMs.

I just seen too much of those. Some DMs and dive ops are really trying their best to serve their customers. I wouldn't even want my money back if they have problems. It happened few times, when the engine on the operator's boat broke. We spent the whole day on the water, and it was tough, I often get seasick. We got burned under the sun, dehydrated, we didn't bring enough water, the dive sucked big time. Everybody was so p*ssed. But we paid full amount and tipped the crew very good, because on the other dives they did their best to make us happy. On that particular dive they just had bad luck, but they tried everything, we saw that they really tried their best.

From the other side there are plenty of businesses in touristy areas who rely on "one-time tourist" model. Millions of tourists pass through, so what if they are unhappy and get ripped off? Many more will come. And if the bad name spreads and business slows down, then what? Just change the name and continue. In such cases being a "customer from hell" is only doing a huge favor for other tourists. In this case if DM really took care of the OP, made sure that the OP had nice second dive, then I would even tip him. But DM showed no interest in serving the customer. I think just "voting with your pocket" is not enough, the captain should know about this, and the captain should realize that the bad reviews will follow. Then he will make sure it won't happen with the next diver.

Good points, I agree on all. I have very little experience as a customer in touristy places. I'll take your word on how some of these dive ops operate--too bad this situation exists. I've taken charters in NS, SC, FL, MS and TX and really have had no problems to speak of regarding poor service. Just lucky so far.

 

[rivers]

I was wondering why a cramp would need to end a dive.

I'd certainly ask for a refund. The operator's employee cut the dive short due to non-emergency reasons. Just refunding the DM fee doesn't do anything for the fact that the dive was essentially missed. (Unless this was a deep dive- 25 minutes is painfully short of a dive.)

Anyone can call the dive for any reason, even a paid DM. No questions asked. He had his DM fee refunded, and that's Ll that should have happened. I've paid for the privilege of vomiting off the side of a boat and sitting out the dive, one of my mates had a catastrophic drysuit failure on the shotline and I didn't get to dive. I still had to pay for it. It is the nature of charter boat diving. If you make it on the boat, the boat goes out , you pay regardless of length of dive time or even if you got to dive.
For all we know, the DM's cramp could have been caused by irritation of an old injury. Sh*t happens

 

[Lorenzoid]

I think if I hired a mechanic to fix some domafache or whatchamadoodle on my car and they did not fix it I would not be paying.

I agree that out of FinnMom's analogies, that's the one that I do NOT agree with.

The difference between an auto mechanic and someone who is considered a "professional" service provider, like a doctor, lawyer, or dare I say, a divemaster, is that there is an understanding in hiring a professional to perform a service that the professional can guarantee nothing more than that he or she will do the job in a way that meets whatever standard is accepted in that field. A doctor doesn't guarantee specific results. Of course, with something as serious as treating a human being for a medical condition, there will be extra safeguards and backups. At the other end of the spectrum of what's expected from "professionals," a divemaster similarly doesn't guarantee specific results. And I don't think the standard in divemastering is that there needs to be much in the way of safeguards and backups. As I said previously, I think the expectation is that we divers shoulder some of the risk that the DM won't be able to provide the specific results we had hoped for. Let's not forget that a DM is a professional hired for a professional service--guiding a dive--no matter what distance on the spectrum of professional services that may be from services like medical care.

 

[Skittl1321]

Anyone can call the dive for any reason, even a paid DM. No questions asked. He had his DM fee refunded, and that's Ll that should have happened. I've paid for the privilege of vomiting off the side of a boat and sitting out the dive, one of my mates had a catastrophic drysuit failure on the shotline and I didn't get to dive. I still had to pay for it. It is the nature of charter boat diving. If you make it on the boat, the boat goes out , you pay regardless of length of dive time or even if you got to dive.
For all we know, the DM's cramp could have been caused by irritation of an old injury. Sh*t happens

I have no problem with the dive being called. But I think it is perfectly appropriate to request a refund when an employee doesn't deliver the product sold. Vomiting off the side of the boat was not the employee's issue- it was yours. Your buddy having a drysuit issue was not the employee's issue, it was your buddy. If the DM had a dry suit issue, and it caused me to not be able to dive, I'd expect a refund. Company's collect payment to provide services, and shouldn't get to keep the payment if the service is not delivered.

If I'm paying for a liveaboard, chances are it is written as "X nights with up to Y number of dives", so if I don't dive, whatever, because technically you are paying for nights aboard. But most dive boats I've seen they advertise 2-tanks of diving, not a boat ride. So if the company doesn't deliver the dives, I'd expect a refund.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I have no problem with the dive being called. But I think it is perfectly appropriate to request a refund when an employee doesn't deliver the product sold. . . .

See my post just above yours, where I argue that a DM should be considered a professional providing a professional service, not someone merely selling a product. I think there is a difference.