Argon and Dry Suits -- How much warmer?

[battles2a5]

patiently waiting for nereas to find this thread and enlighten us...

 

[4sak3n]

patiently waiting for nereas to find this thread and enlighten us...

 

[Mr.X]

patiently waiting for nereas to find this thread and enlighten us...

Me too!!!
:crazyeye:

 

[Gene_Hobbs]

patiently waiting for nereas to find this thread and enlighten us...

Well, I was not asked but maybe I can add a little...

The paper mentioned earlier is:
J Risberg, A Hope. Thermal insulation properties of argon used as a dry suit inflation gas. Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine 2001;28(3):137-143 RRR ID: 2380

The Dr. Mitchell and UHMS Diving Committee reviewed that paper and the review can be found in the UHMS Library forum of TheDecoStop.com here. (sorry for the cross post mods.)

But moving away from subjective data to objective data, we now have this (from NEDU/ Duke):

Nuckols ML, Giblo J, Wood-Putnam JL. THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS OF DIVING GARMENTS WHEN USING ARGON AS A SUIT INFLATION GAS. Undersea Hyperb Med. 2008 July-Aug;35(4) RRR ID: 7789

The full paper will be published in the proceedings from the Oceans '08. That reference will be:

Nuckols ML, Giblo J, Wood-Putnam JL. A QUANTITATIVE ASSESSMENT OF THE THERMAL PROPERTIES OF DIVING GARMENTS WHEN USING ARGON AS A SUIT INFLATION GAS. Proceedings of the Oceans 08 MTS/IEEE Quebec, Canada Meeting September 15-18, 2008.

and no, I don't know when the proceedings will be done but Lew did present some baseline data at the DAN Technical Conference that can be downloaded here.

BTW - The RRR reached 7,000 items this week!!!

 

[dave4868]

Just started diving dry and have been in temps of 45 degrees and intend to keep diving during the winter (Northeast) and cooler waters. While comfortable, toward the end of the second dive I do start to get a little cool but I'm still comfortable. Anticipating I may be diving in cooler waters or extending dive times, is it worth using argon and does anyone have a guesstimate as to how much warmer it actually keeps you. I couldn't find a thread, blog, or site that actually addresses the temp difference in a dry suit using argon vs. air. Just trying to figure out if it is worth the cost. Thanks.

I've never tried argon, but I found there are a number of things that improved my drysuit warmth enough to allow completely comfortable 90-minute repetitive dives in sub-40-degree water. Although I'm using the Weezle Extreme Plus, you can probably significantly improve the warmth of your Weezle Extreme.

FWIW, I often do the following:

• as was mentioned, get good rest and food
• avoid losing core body heat while setting up gear at the site (I wear a snowmobile suit and full head covering and I'll actually get some increase in core heat)
• keep the undergarment dry by not wearing it while setting up gear
• quickly change into the undergarment and drysuit, but avoid struggling and sweating
• add more insulation if your suit has room for it (polypropylene underwear, homemade 4-layer fleece chest pad, ice cap underhood, drygloves, extra layers of socks)
• in lieu of drygloves or underhood, an insulated container of hot water for warming your hands, gloves and hood will help before and after the dives
• avoid constriction of extremities (generous fitting drysuit and boots to accomodate any extra insulation used)
• use extra lead and extra air in the drysuit and use only the drysuit for buoyancy adjustments (some people have problems or disagreement with this technique, but it will provide more loft of the undergarments and a drying effect)
• in the surface interval, avoid overexertion and sweating and open the zipper to help dry the undergarment
• sometimes, adding a couple more pounds of weight for the second dive and using a little more air in the suit will provide the extra warmth needed to make the slightly damp undergarments function adequately

Occasionally, despite all of this, my second dive is noticeably less warm than the first dive, but it's usually because higher exertion levels had generated more perspiration that built up in the undergarment.

Even then, it's still adequately warm by using those strategies! No more shortened dives because of being too cold!

Dave C

 

[Peter_C]

Also your hood will make a big difference. Keeping the head warm is important. In case you have not seen them I will give a plug for Otter Bay hoods. Most people that dive a lot in colder water use Cricket's 12 mm hood for warmth. Of course we only see 45 degrees as our minimum temperature.

Otter Bay

Dry gloves are a nice accessory too.

 

[Dapher]

Do you have a good relationship with your local dive shop? If so ask them if they have a bottle and regulator that you can rent. Then you can decide for yourself if the cost is worth it. I found it to be well worth the additional cost and come January I will be nice and toasty on my dives even tho the water temp has reduced considerably. Although.. as said previously if you are choosing between good undergarmets and argon go with the undergarmet, then add the argon.

Oh and since you stated you just started diving dry make sure you are comfortable with switching your drysuit hose under water. I get 3-4 dives from one bottle but did run out once and needed to switch. No big deal if you are comfortable removing your hose and have the backup hose close at hand.

 

[Rick Inman]

But moving away from subjective data to objective data, we now have this (from NEDU/ Duke):

Nuckols ML, Giblo J, Wood-Putnam JL. THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS OF DIVING GARMENTS WHEN USING ARGON AS A SUIT INFLATION GAS. Undersea Hyperb Med. 2008 July-Aug;35(4) RRR ID: 7789

And from that article:

RESULTS: Improvements in localized thermal insulation values were seen throughout both drysuit ensembles when using argon as an inflation gas when compared with those while using air. Overall, the total suit insulation values increased by 16 – 20% for the two drysuit ensembles. CONCLUSIONS: This investigation has demonstrated that significant improvements in drysuit thermal protection can theoretically be achieved when using argon instead of air as a drysuit inflation gas. It should be noted however that these improvements can only be achieved by carefully and repeatedly purging (a minimum of 6 purge cycles) with pure argon prior to water entry.

As for me, when you get down in water in the 30's and compare argon to air as a suit gas, you will know the difference.

Also, I enjoy the addition back-up a separate system gives you for buoyancy gas.

 

[coldsmoke]

I would have to agree with Rick. In fact it was diving with Rick several weeks ago that I had my first intro to argon. I was an argon skeptic. ( actually I might still be) We forgot to send our inflation bottles with Rick with the rest of the tanks for tops one evening. We realized it the next morning so the only option we had was to trans fill them with 50% or trimix (obviously neither such a good idea) or fill with argon off of Allen's tank. So we filled with argon. I don't know if I would have been cold if I had just air for inflation during that dive, but I loved pressing the inflation button. I am still suprised at how warm the gas felt coming into the suit. Even if it doesn't actually keep me warmer I think it is worth it for the nice burst of warmth when it enters the suit.

Of course, like it has been argued so many times before, it may in fact be all in my head. But I was a skeptic and it really did feel warmer. So at the end of the day, if it feels warmer then I feel warmer and who cares.

Hunter

 

[vaq]

Thanks everyone, I think 'm just going to add an undergarment.