Argon and Dry Suits -- How much warmer?

[texdiveguy]

Some really good info here. I'm in the transition of switching to argon.

Why are you switching to the use of argon from your experience of it properties//mechanics of useage...?

 

[SparticleBrane]

I would absolutely love to see a study like this done. It would be great to know if argon truly keeps you warmer, or if it's more of a placebo, in that you expect it will keep you warmer so your brain convinces you that you are warmer. I am skeptical, so studies like this would produce results that could sway me one way or the other.

For those of you that want to see these sorts of studies done -- rigorous, scientifically valid studies -- donate a little money to Rubicon, or participate in one of their fundraisers. If anyone could do these sorts of studies it would be Gene.

I'm a 'poor starving college student' but even I manage to donate the occasional $20 here and there. One of the reasons I try to donate when I can is that I've seen Gene working to input information into the research repository. A huge majority of the 7000+ articles in Rubicon have been entered manually into the system by Gene, working in his 'free time'. It can be a very time-consuming process.


Here's a quick synopsis of how the process works, using the UHMS abstracts as an example (these are the only ones I've worked on; I assume the process is similar for everything else as well):

• Gene has the articles in question scanned into the computer using OCR, and a plain text file is created from the text the scanner picked up.
  
  
• The original PDF file of the document is compared side by side with the text file from the scanner. Any mistakes or weird characters are deleted manually. For me this means reading the document in its entirety, plus the text file, sometimes word for word (gets a bit tedious here...). Occasionally the original copy didn't scan very well so the text file is worthless and has to be completely rewritten.
  
  
• All relevant information for the source, authors, funding, academic journal information, publishing information, etc, are entered into the system, along with the completed text file.
  
  
• Repeat 100+ times for each year of UHMS abstracts.

Gene does this so that we all can have easy access to this information. If you want to help -- donate a little money (any will help) or talk to Gene about inputting information. Even putting in 1-2 per day would be helpful and would probably take 10-15 minutes max (and you'd go faster as you get better at it). Speaking of which -- Gene, I should be graduating soon and will have some time to help input abstracts.

 

[Steve_Dives]

I am fairly certain the test referenced above was the more recent Nuckols et. al. work listed in my first post in this thread. (It was USN funded and not DAN but the prelim data was presented at the 2008 DAN Tech Conference)

I think that's it. I watched the presentations.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

You are both correct. (I checked.) Wattenberger (1978) was measuring the thermal properties of heliox, not argon.

 

[Meng_Tze]

....
IMHO Argon is most useful when --
* Breathing helium mixes;
* Using a scooter;
* Performing long deco hangs;
* In very cold water;
* With at least 3 complete fills and purges of the drysuit before entering the water.

I have done dives in combinations of the above criteria except very cold water. I have not noticed a difference in using Argon or Air. I gave up on that. I think having a good undersuit (several layers) gives far more heat control.

 

[Randy43068]

I saw a study where an instrumented dummy was placed in a drysuit and then immersed in cold water. For this study they purged the suit extensively with argon, but didn't really elaborate on the procedure. I recall an improvement of 10-20% was their result (going on memory). I think I found the study through DAN somehow.

Separating drysuit inflation from your breathing gas & air cell inflation for added redundancy is another benefit. And if you're doing dives that require that level of redundancy, why not use argon?

From a theoretical perspective It's a good gas for this purpose. However, to make it really work one would have to purge most the air from their undies and suit then replace it with argon. I'm not sure how practical that is in reality.

 

[jawmendr]

I have been diving dry for 10 years with air for drysuit inflation. I just switched to Argon and I feel the "difference" I do not know at this time whether it is psychological. On the last several dives on the west coast (water temp 60deg. F.) with cooler thermoclines, I took off one layer of dive wear because of feeling "too warm'. I am 71 and quite sensitive to the cold. I would prefer to not have to add weight for increased loft by layering up.
The studies done re:Argon vs air measured body core temperatures. I think that they should have measured the temps in the insulation layer of the drysuit. (between the body and the divewear). I will keep diving Argon at least for a while until I can make a more definitive conclusion base on empiracle evidence. (ones own experience and observation)

 

[Rick Inman]

I have not noticed a difference in using Argon or Air. I gave up on that.

I wish people would quit telling me that. If argon is a placebo, I sure don't want to know about it and get cold!

 

[texdiveguy]

I wish people would quit telling me that. If argon is a placebo, I sure don't want to know about it and get cold!

OK, we won't tell you that!

 

[Rhone Man]

Only slightly off topic: there was a recently study in the UK where doctors told their patients that they were prescribing a placebo, and for 17% of patients the placebo still worked.

I sort of assumed those 17% must come from Manchester, but the article didn't say.