Artifact Arrest

[ScubaToneDog]

Ok...I see the philosophy of Archeolocical preservation. I dont buy it. I have debated the issue, based on the article that this thread originated on, in a metal detecting forum several months ago. Out west in towns like Carson city, Tombstone and Deadwood, treasure hunting in the towns old dumps, and many of the private trash holes and priveys on private property, is illegal. Why? Because of the cultural heritage contained there in. I personally find that a bit over the top. If it is of such important cultural heritage to document, catalog and map these things out, then why isnt it done? Because no one wants to shell out millions of dollars to find an old belt buckle.

You cant convince me that every wreck in the sea is of Historical interest or importance. The way the laws are going it will be illegal to dive any wreck soon. Keep stressing the point and recreational divers wont be able to dive anywhere...even the ships scuttled as artificial reefs...

 

[james croft]

I was diving a federal gunship sunk in the 1870's that is a protected site. I located a loose brass door lying on the bottom that I believe was a door to a powder magazine. I was salivating over it but I did the right thing and left it. Somebody else took it. No good deed ever goes unpunished. There has to be a happy compromise. I don't see government agencies actively searching for shipwrecks, although they are glad to call the shots once some "treasure hunter" spends a lot of time, research and $$$ locating one. Even when private salvors locate and preserve artifacts. archeologists complain, as was the case when Barry Clifford salvaged the pirate ship Whydah or when`Tommy Thompson salvaged the Central America. Can some one tell me what is wrong with a guy wanting a little piece of brass once in a while ?

 

[archman]

Out west in towns like Carson city, Tombstone and Deadwood, treasure hunting in the towns old dumps, and many of the private trash holes and priveys on private property, is illegal. Why? Because of the cultural heritage contained there in.

Yes, that is precisely it. For the exact same reasons that private collectors desire access to "dumps", archaeologists and historians want to keep those individuals out. "Dumps" are historical sites filled with artifacts deposited at discrete time scales, and their contents directly reflect consumptive usage of the period. They're a metaphorical gold mine.

What you are describing here is considered looting in many regions, and will be regulated as such. You will find few among the public sympathetic to deliberate scavenging on public lands, which is effectively what "treasure hunting" amounts to. It is too easily taken too far.

Private property, however, is more dicey. Realistically if one purchases the land, that should encompass manmade stuff on the land. Human remains excepted. What one is permitted to do/not do on private lands has always been a contentious issue, and artifact collecting tops the list.

I personally find that a bit over the top. If it is of such important cultural heritage to document, catalog and map these things out, then why isnt it done? Because no one wants to shell out millions of dollars to find an old belt buckle.

The presence of a historical site in no way implies a requirement to have an active archaeological dig taking place at it, nor a past one. What it does imply is that it is exempt from scavenging. The site is assured of remaining in a pristine state. When/if funds are secured for excavation (some are deliberately left as is), there you are.
Incidentally, most land excavations cost in the thousands of dollars. Unpaid volunteers donate their time, which is usually in the summer months when university faculty are freed up for field work. Most archaeology operates on shoestring budgets. Few archaeologists are full-time, either.

You cant convince me that every wreck in the sea is of Historical interest or importance.

Well, if you can't be convinced, why post to a discussion-based thread?

The way the laws are going it will be illegal to dive any wreck soon. Keep stressing the point and recreational divers wont be able to dive anywhere...even the ships scuttled as artificial reefs...

That's an odd thing to state. Artificial reefs are on the rapid upswing, not the other way around. Many of these reefs happen to be wrecks. Even wrecks not sunk intentionally are for the much greater part accessible for diving. You just can't be pulling them apart for mementos and eBay sales.

 

[archman]

I was diving a federal gunship sunk in the 1870's that is a protected site. I located a loose brass door lying on the bottom that I believe was a door to a powder magazine. I was salivating over it but I did the right thing and left it. Somebody else took it. No good deed ever goes unpunished.

That's an enforcement issue. Most protected public lands suffer heavily from this. Misbehaviour from one private citizen in no way condones other private citizens to follow suit, however. You did the correct thing, both legally and ethically. The jerk who swiped the brass door committed a crime.

There has to be a happy compromise. I don't see government agencies actively searching for shipwrecks, although they are glad to call the shots once some "treasure hunter" spends a lot of time, research and $$$ locating one. Even when private salvors locate and preserve artifacts. archeologists complain, as was the case when Barry Clifford salvaged the pirate ship Whydah or when`Tommy Thompson salvaged the Central America. Can some one tell me what is wrong with a guy wanting a little piece of brass once in a while ?

Yep, you nailed it here. There has to be allowance for private collecting on at least small scales. And there is. Private salvage operations typically have permits to commercially sell certain artifacts. They understand this, which is why they operate. But they are known for cutting corners on their excavations in order to maximize potential profits. Some are known for not reporting all of their findings, either. Of course this will create bad blood with the scientists.

Private citizens are usually at a severe disadvantage regarding antiquities laws, as many localities have such convoluted, obscure regulations that you either are never aware of collecting restrictions, or you need to fill out enough lame paperwork to bury an elephant. That is a problem with the bureaucracy, which can often be ameliorated with sufficient public lobbying.

 

[ScubaToneDog]

Well, if you can't be convinced, why post to a discussion-based thread?

Whoa buddy....I am a member of this forum and have every right to post my opinion...as does every member here...Not just you...That's the beauty of it...lots of different opinions and Ideas...its not personal...do not go there!!!

I will not be convinced that the Archaeological world is right on the preservation of everything they Deem culturally important. You will not convince me that only some wrecks will meet the criteria of cultural importance, and that they will continue to be made available to the general public to explore and enjoy. They will be taken away from us.

Artificial reefs are on the rapid upswing, not the other way around. Many of these reefs happen to be wrecks. Even wrecks not sunk intentionally are for the much greater part accessible for diving. You just can't be pulling them apart for mementos and eBay sales.

Artificial Reefs can, and I predict will eventually, end up protected and off limits to divers along with all submerged lands through out the US, including natural areas, Quarry's, and Cave systems. Why? Because legal Precedent has been set. All it takes is one person to submit a motion to a states legislature and Poof....Recreational diving spots can disappear. Yes, even that pond in your backyard...The article this thread is based on should scare you.

Divers for the most part are very ethical when it comes to preserving wreck sites. Metal detectorists are also very ethical in their treatment of sites they shoot. Many Naturalists have ethics that are beyond approach....but there are fewer and fewer areas Naturalists can get away to because the public access lands are becoming more and more "off limits". Detectorists have little to no access to public lands, and private lands have local and state restrictions that have all but made them outlaws. That leaves Divers. You think we are safe? Think again.

 

[archman]

Whoa buddy....I am a member of this forum and have every right to post my opinion...as does every member here...Not just you...That's the beauty of it...lots of different opinions and Ideas...its not personal...do not go there!!!

I did not say you couldn't post. I questioned your reasons for posting to a discussion-based thread, if you've already made up your mind. Which should not be construed as a personal attack, and in any event you've reiterated your position here:

I will not be convinced that the Archaeological world is right on the preservation of everything they Deem culturally important. You will not convince me that only some wrecks will meet the criteria of cultural importance, and that they will continue to be made available to the general public to explore and enjoy. They will be taken away from us.

Artificial Reefs can, and I predict will eventually, end up protected and off limits to divers along with all submerged lands through out the US, including natural areas, Quarry's, and Cave systems. Why? Because legal Precedent has been set.

Artificial reefs are deliberately sunk for specific purposes. Any historical value they possessed has been already studied. Any valuable components have been removed. Archaeologists and historians have almost zero interest in artificial reefs. A properly prepped artificial wreck is little more than a gutted hull and superstructure. In any event the majority of artificial reefs aren't even ex-ships, but special-built structures.

Divers for the most part are very ethical when it comes to preserving wreck sites.

The caveat here is "for the most part". As James posted earlier, looting happens. I've seen it, also.

Metal detectorists are also very ethical in their treatment of sites they shoot. Many Naturalists have ethics that are beyond approach....but there are fewer and fewer areas Naturalists can get away to because the public access lands are becoming more and more "off limits". Detectorists have little to no access to public lands, and private lands have local and state restrictions that have all but made them outlaws.

Public land access for purposes of ANY collecting should of course be regulated. Some areas should be (and are) off limits entirely. Others limit what/how much you take. Few people (outside collectors) have issue with this. Professional collectors get permits. So do the more zealous amateur ones. It is in many ways similar to fishing laws. One cannot run riot over public land snatching or digging up whatever they please. That leads to reduced resources, and THAT leads to tighter restrictions and outright closures.

Back to private lands, that's a separate issue. Artifact collecting should generally be up to the discretion of the landowner. States and localities view this differently throughout the U.S.. In any event there is hardly any private ownership of submerged lands, so it doesn't really apply to divers.

 

[ScubaToneDog]

You make it sound like everyone with a dive tank and/or a metal detector is bound to commit criminal looting. That is a very scary thing. Most museums have items on loan from private individuals who, in my opinion, saved these items from being lost forever. To label a diver who finds a virgin wreck and removes the bell as a criminal disturbs me.

By limiting access to public lands for any reason no longer makes them public land. Restrictions on private land makes them no longer private. By the continual restriction of rights and freedoms in the name of preservation we all lose.

Oh and if I am not discussing a topic here why do you keep responding...You seem to have your mind made up.... ;o)

Happy New Year...Im off to have a beer......

 

[ItsBruce]

As a slight digression, since I seem to keep getting in trouble over wreck diving and archeology, it seems apropos for me to put in my two more cents. Over the weekend, a boat in the local marina sank at its slip. The owner and marina operator undertook to raise it. I urged that it be left in place for its future historical value. When all was said and done, I was lucky not to have been arrested. So my question: Why shouldn't this particular wreck have been left alone?

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Whenever an ancient relic appears on the web for sale captioned by “from some old shipwreck we found“, I get a chill run up my spine. Not that some one other than me found a wreck, but that these artifacts are on the open market with out any sort of historical documentation. This is the exact reason that all treasure hunters should follow standard archaeology guidelines as required in the location that a wreck is discovered i.e., local and state laws. If the relic has been certified, it comes with a history that can be shared in public. As well as commanding higher price tags on the open market. This is important if you are running a small independent operation. Eventually you will have to sell off some of your finds just to pay the boats fuel bill. A certified wreck that has been salvaged legally will fetch about double that of a wreck with no name or history.

There is a general misconception by those academics in the Anthropology departments of many universities the world over, and in particular the state of Florida’s Department of Historical Resources (DHR), is that most all us so called “treasure hunters” go out, find a wreck, pilfer that which may not be ours (by legal definition), and sell it on eBay or some other, more nefarious method of disposing of ill-gotten gains.
This misconception, has led to a global campaign by the academic types to tighten the noose around the neck of the independent salvage divers all over the globe. Or, is it really a misconception?

Every time an item of this nature, that may or may-not be of archaeological significance, surfaces in the public eye, I can see “Them” (archaeologist), all standing in a group pointing at us all, and saying “See... I told you those so called “Treasure hunters”, are all just a lawless bunch of grave robbing, thieving, profiteering pirates for whom, all are only driven by the lust for big profit, with no respect for the law, no respect for world history, and no respect for society in general, they should all be damned, and put behind bars! Sounds harsh doesn’t it? Yet this is how they see us.

There is an element within our community that fits this description, and I would venture a guess that they are relatively few in number. There is little we can do about these folks, just wait and we will eventually read about them in the paper as there boat and all there treasure hunter gear ends up at a public auction.

Then there are the weekend sport divers, who are more interested a good time than anything else. Some of these folks routinely recover relics just for something to do. They collect Indian arrow heads, sharks teeth, portholes and other items from more modern wrecks. Some of these folks clean these items up, and turn them into lamps or other trinkets that can be found in little antique shops in most coastal towns. I would venture a guess that most of these folks are unaware of laws in there communities, and the fact that they are breaking the laws every day.

As for me personally, well I will continue with the hunt, and work within the framework of the law, yet I will be ever vigilant, and work whatever loophole in the law I can find to bend the law in my favor. If you are not happy with the laws of salvage, then I suggest that you start working to change the unfair laws that are on the books. This is the American way!

Q

 

[ScubaToneDog]

Wreck diver...Well put...Here in Ohio we have MAST, Marine Archeological Survey Team, who work very hard to document wrecks. These divers volunteer their time, money, boats, gear and even their homes as base camps, to the documentation of wrecks. After 10 years of petitioning the state and Coast Guard they were able to get permission and funding together to get 4 seasonal Marker Bouy's on 4 popular wrecks. No more hooking the wreck with your anchor, and they are easy to find now too.
deeply
The laws up here are not as crazy as elsewhere in the country in regards to Historical preservation. I guess the Midwest Industrial Revolution states have nothing to offer in the way of Historical importance right now. Maybe in another 10-15 years, but right now we're under the Archeo*******'s radar...What really grinds me is that if the laws in Ohio were to adopt the preservation Agenda of other states, groups like MAST would cease to exist. That disturbes me.