Best way to dive Browning Pass ...

[Stoo]

An operator who has one of his skiffs sink on him for no apparent reason with thousands of dollars worth of customers' gear is more than things going sideways or being quirky.

I am just back from my forth consecutive year at the Hideaway, and perhaps my 15th trip diving with John the owner... all the previous ones being on his liveaboard the MV Clavella. I led a group of 12 there and I think it's fair to say that with one possible exception, everyone had an amazing time. (The one less-than-thrilled was only because he had a sinus infection and missed most of the diving.) We also lost 2 full days of diving when the remnants of a hurricane came calling. The weather buoy that is north of the Hideaway, and in the open ocean, was reporting 11m/36' waves, with 2m/6' "chop" and winds gusting to 90 knots. Fortunately, we were adequately provisioned with rum.

So let me address some of the comments... True to form, the Hideaway is Rustic, with a capital R. When I was "promoting" my little expedition, I told people to think of it as camping on a raft, but with indoor plumbing and showers. It's better than that, because the beds are decent, with down duvets and plenty of blankets. The food is good "homestyle" cooking. There was lots of it and it was very good, but basic. Again, the remoteness limits some options of course, but I certainly didn't feel I was missing out on anything.

I also encouraged people to pack a sense of humour, because there is always the potential for things to go "sideways" as someone put it. A generator can go down, or a compressor or the boat can die, but in all my years diving with John's operations, I can honestly say I've never missed a dive because of something going wonky. (These two down-days from weather were also the only two days I've missed due to weather.) This past week, nothing went "sideways". My only complaint was that we only got three dives in per day, rather than the four we had done the previous years. The only reason for this was that we had a group of 12 which was frankly two many. It takes too long to get everyone in and out of the water and to fill tanks. We took five "K's of O2 out with us for rebreathers and nitrox... Not something I would bother with again I don't think. It really isn't necessary.

The diving was spectacular as always. As were the surface intervals (orcas, sea lions, seals (living on the rafts), wolves (out the back door, perhaps 50m away), bald eagles etc. John is National Geographic's "go to" guy when they're up that way and indeed, a week there is a bit like it must be like living in the pages of that magazine.

Regarding the accident with the skiff, there is another side of the story. I was told by John that there were four late arrivals for that trip. He had already packed and tarped the skiff. While he was tending to other business, the late arrivals showed up and loaded their gear into the bow of the skiff and retarped it, which changed the trim on the boat. They were local guys, so their gear included tanks and lead. When they were out in the open, the water was rough. At one point, another larger boat passed them. John turned into the wake appropriately, and the skiff, now somewhat bow heavy, was slow to turn, and as a result it took on some water, then more, and finally it swamped and capsized. Whatever wasn't tied in, got lose. If it floated, it was recovered. It it didn't, it wasn't. It's my understanding that virtually everyone who lost gear had it insured, but John covered the cost of their deductible. One or possibly two people didn't have their gear insured and expected him to cover the total cost of their loss. I don't personally think that that's reasonable. An airline wouldn't do it, why would someone expect a small operation like John's? Anyone who travels should have their gear insured, just as they should have travel insurance. It was an unfortunate accident, but sometimes stuff happens.

As I mentioned above, I've not stayed at God's Pocket but from what I hear, it's very nice and the owners are pretty knowledgeable about the area as well. I did notice that there boat is open and given the frequent rain there, I think something with a roof is a good idea...

I have another group heading back on the first week of October, 2016. We're half full already, so if you're interested in coming, send me a note here or on FB.

Here's a link to some shots from my last trip or two: https://wetspot.smugmug.com/British-Columbia/

 

[nadwidny]

Never mind

 

[JohnN]

Regarding the accident with the skiff, there is another side of the story. I was told by John that there were four late arrivals for that trip. He had already packed and tarped the skiff. While he was tending to other business, the late arrivals showed up and loaded their gear into the bow of the skiff and retarped it, which changed the trim on the boat. They were local guys, so their gear included tanks and lead. When they were out in the open, the water was rough. At one point, another larger boat passed them. John turned into the wake appropriately, and the skiff, now somewhat bow heavy, was slow to turn, and as a result it took on some water, then more, and finally it swamped and capsized. Whatever wasn't tied in, got lose. If it floated, it was recovered. It it didn't, it wasn't. It's my understanding that virtually everyone who lost gear had it insured, but John covered the cost of their deductible. One or possibly two people didn't have their gear insured and expected him to cover the total cost of their loss. I don't personally think that that's reasonable. An airline wouldn't do it, why would someone expect a small operation like John's? Anyone who travels should have their gear insured, just as they should have travel insurance. It was an unfortunate accident, but sometimes stuff happens.

Wow that is the lamest excuse for poor behavior I've heard in quite a while.

#1 Its real simple. The owner of the boat is responsible for the boat and packing the boat. Let's try a parallel. . . someone sets up your dive gear and you jump in the water without checking it and something unexpected happens. Is it the person who set up your gear's fault, or your fault for not taking responsibility.

--or--
There was a tragic incident in BC where a whale watching boat capsized. The probable cause was that all the passengers were on the top deck on one side and the boat caught a quartering wave on the stern and rolled.

Was it the passenger's fault for being on one side, or the captain's fault for allowing unsafe behavior and missing the quartering wave?


#2 Are you really trying to suggest that because someone didn't have insurance for their gear its their fault? Another parallel . . . you're driving your car and are hit by an uninsured motorist. Is it your fault you don't carry uninsured motorist protection?

 

[Darnold9999]

Wow that is the lamest excuse for poor behavior I've heard in quite a while.

+1

So it is a bad thing that the passenger does not carry insurance, but it is OK for the transportation company not to carry insurance. SERIOUSLY???

and I really like the - "someone else loaded the boat" so it is not my fault excuse ... again SERIOUSLY???

I liked diving at Hideaway, did not like the fact that the operation is an accident waiting to happen. Way too many things that you can see that are maintained at the very minimum, boats, skiffs, docks, kitchen, etc. Makes one wonder how the maintenance of things you can't see like compressors is handled.

 

[Stoo]

Wow that is the lamest excuse for poor behavior I've heard in quite a while.

I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, only relaying what is my understanding of what happened. It's my understanding that these late arrivals loaded their stuff into the boat without the knowledge of anyone on the crew. John presumably returned, assumed... mistakenly... that the remaining gear had been loaded properly and set off. Clearly an oversight, but one that I can see happening. I think that the guests need to assume some of the responsibility for not asking permission to load the gear.. I can tell you one thing for certain... on our trip, everything in that skiff was lashed down very well from what I could see. I remember this because it occurred to me that if the thing capsized again, it likely would have sunk the skiff... I was sitting where the towline was tied and was prepared to drop that line if I thought it was going down... otherwise it might have sunk the boat we were on. I think an argument could be made for not tying gear in...

To go back to my analogy of the airlines... Airlines loose peoples' bags all the time and as a rule, only pay out a limited amount... just as John did in covering the deductible. If an airline sends your bag of dive gear off to China instead of Cozumel and it's never seen again, there is absolutely no way... none... that they are going to reimburse you for the replacement cost of the stuff in your bag. It's my understanding that that is what these two people want... full replacement cost on everything that they lost. Even their insurance coverage, had they had any, wouldn't have paid that normally. Normally, they would pay out a depreciated value...

Anyway, I don't think there's much point discussing this since we're all talking about something we likely don't know everything about, and it has nothing to do with the OPs question.

 

[JohnN]

I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, only relaying what is my understanding of what happened. To go back to my analogy of the airlines, they loose peoples bags all the time and as a rule, only pay out a limited amount... just as John did in covering the deductible. If an airline sends your bag of dive gear off to China instead of Cozumel and it's never seen again, there is absolutely no way... none... that they are going to reimburse you for the replacement cost of the stuff in your bag. It's my understanding that that is what these two people want... full replacement cost on everything that they lost. Even their insurance coverage, had they had any, wouldn't have paid that normally. Normally, they would pay out a depreciated value...

Anyway, I don't think there's much point discussing this since we're all talking about something we likely don't know everything about, and it has nothing to do with the OPs question.

Still lame Stoo You took up a foolish position, and you're stuck with it. I don't care if the owner is your BFF. He behaved poorly and will never get my business.

First off the airline luggage analogy is equally lame and not relevant because the governing law is a treaty signed a long time ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Convention In 1929 $250 was a sizeable pile of money. The Convention basically supersedes your ability to seek civil damages for lost property. Not so for the incident under discussion. I should add that although the Convention limits liabilities, most airlines do try and make things right where there is an unusually large f**kup (equivalent to the issue under discussion)

So here are the question I present to you:

"Is the captain of a boat/ship in charge and responsible for everything that happens on the boat/ship?"

"Is it a prudent business practice to carry appropriate liability insurance"

"If you screw up, shouldn't an honorable person make it right"?

I can't wait for your answers

 

[Stoo]

Still lame Stoo You took up a foolish position, and you're stuck with it. I don't care if the owner is your BFF. He behaved poorly and will never get my business.

First off the airline luggage analogy is equally lame and not relevant because the governing law is a treaty signed a long time ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Convention In 1929 $250 was a sizeable pile of money. The Convention basically supersedes your ability to seek civil damages for lost property. Not so for the incident under discussion. I should add that although the Convention limits liabilities, most airlines do try and make things right where there is an unusually large f**kup (equivalent to the issue under discussion)

So here are the question I present to you:

"Is the captain of a boat/ship in charge and responsible for everything that happens on the boat/ship?"

"Is it a prudent business practice to carry appropriate liability insurance"

"If you screw up, shouldn't an honorable person make it right"?

I can't wait for your answers

I guess we will continue to derail this thread.... And yes I readily acknowledge that John and I go back a long way.... And yes we are friends, although I think "BFF" might be a bit strong...

I get what you're saying about the airlines, but none the less, their "liabilty" is limited and I would love for you to site an example where an airline did the "right thing". I imagine that this limit of liability has been tested many times in the courts over the years and upheld. I have known several people that have had gear lost while flying, and in EVERY case, the airlines made a token payment after months of fighting. Ultimately, the loss was covered by the person's insurance, to whatever level they were insured for.

As for your three rivetting questions, I won't disagree with what I expect your answers would be.. Of course the captain is ultimately responsible. Of course he needs to carry insurance... but I don't think that any companies insurance is simply going to write a cheque for replacement cost on the customer's loss, and I understand that that's what these two want. The insurance company will negotiate a payment along with the customer's own insurer I expect...

As for an honourable person making it right... well, for all of the other guests who had enough brains to insure their gear, he did make it right... he paid the deductible and everyone was satisfied. I imagine he offered to pay a similar amount to these other people, but they would settle for nothing less than a full payout. Presumably their thought process went something like this. "I am too stupid/lazy/cheap to insure my gear. It's old and smelly. Through your actions, it is lost, therefore, you must buy me all new equipment". That simply isn't how the world works.

Anyway, I don't expect that we will ever agree on this. It's your gear. Insure it. That just seems sensible. And yes, it would be awesome if John just cut everyone a cheque, but I just don't think that would be possible for the following reasons... and take this from a guy who owned two reasonably successful businesses so I understand the thought process...

If all of my stuff had been lost, that would be roughly (at replacement cost) $18K in photo equipment, $3K drysuit, $1000 reg and gauge, $1100 Petral computer, $500 Quantum computer, $300 prescription mask, $175 jetfins, $800 Santi BX400 undies, $200 spool/SMB, $500 backplate and wing, $400 light... about $26,000 (all CDN $). Then multiply this by I suppose 8 or 10 guests... That's a whack of dough. Since there is no way that any company's liability insurance would cover that (again, they might cover the deductible or the depreciated cost), you are suggesting that John "personally" pick up perhaps as much as $100,000 to $200,000 maybe more, in losses. I suspect that would put him out of business, but even if it didn't, from a purely practical perspective it makes no sense for him to do so. His decision will cost him the two uninsured customers for sure, and perhaps a few more like yourself who won't go because of this thread and that's it. That would be unfortunate, but he's still going to be in business. The other customers who had insurance all have shiny new dive gear, and they didn't have to pay the deductible. And they probably all upgraded to boot. Admittedly, their premium will go up slightly, but gear insurance costs $2/$100 coverage (I just updated my policy before I left on that trip), so an increase might be $25 or something trivial...

Getting back to your third question... An "Honorable Person" would indeed make it right. But an Honorable Person who also wants to stay in business would make it as right as he sensibly can without risking his business.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that sometimes sh!t happens and a wise person would insure their dive gear, just like they insure themselves with DAN insurance or similar.

I took a group out there (12 in total) three weeks ago. Without exception, everyone had a fantastic time, in spite of being blown out for two days. Before we went, I emphasized that the place was "Rustic", and that they really needed to carry proper insurance. I put up an ad on FB for a return trip next fall and it was full within a week. Most of those coming are repeat guests.

I am not trying to trivialize what happened and I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying, but I think there's responsibility on both sides. John was able to satisfy everyone but these two uninsured guests. I just don't think that they are being reasonable. I suppose if they feel strongly enough about it, they can take him to Small Claims Court and they will likely get some satisfaction.

As an aside, I would love to know if the two uninsured guests were among the ones who "snuck" their gear into the skiff.... That would be one of those Karma/Beatch things I suppose...

 

[JohnN]

As an aside, I would love to know if the two uninsured guests were among the ones who "snuck" their gear into the skiff.... That would be one of those Karma/Beatch things I suppose...

Sorry Stoo, there is not enough perfume in the universe to make this pig smell good.

You keep trying to blame the passengers for the captain's lack of attention to HIS dingy.

Do you really expect us to believe he would have taken the same position if he only contracted the boat and wasn't the operator?

Your buddy is no better than the owners of that fertilizer plant in Texas West, Texas, fertilizer plant blast that killed 15 'preventable' - CNN.com that carried a whopping $1M insurance policy. If he is cutting corners on liability insurance, where else is he economizing?

 

[Stoo]

JohnN, I'm not actually trying to defend anyone... All I wanted to point out was the details as I knew them, and that I think it's a really good idea to insure your dive gear. Of course the operator is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on his boat (although I think comparing an industrial accident with 15 deaths to the loss of a bit of dive gear is a bit of a stretch...). I also think that those that stuffed their gear into the skiff without telling someone that they did that share some responsibility for what happened...

My guess, is that ultimately this decision (to pay put or not) wasn't John's... It would have been the decision of his insurance company I expect, and my GUESS (and it's only that...) is that they agreed to cover the cost of the deductible for those that had insurance, and a similar amount to those that didn't have insurance. Everyone except the uninsured guests, was apparently satisfied with this resolution...

And again, from a purely business perspective, it probably made a heck of a lot more sense to pay out the minimum that was required to keep the most clients happy. That kinda sucks, but it's the way insurance, and the world works. I suppose if the insurer (or John as the case may be) offered to pay out the complete value of the two uninsured guests equipment then the insured guests would say that they wanted that too, so that they didn't have to make a claim on their insurance. I'm no lawyer, but my guess is that there is some precedent for offering everyone the same thing... At any rate, and as I said earlier, no insurance company is going to offer to pay full replacement cost on maybe 10 loads of gear because insurance NEVER pays anything but depreciated value, and John certainly wouldn't have the ability to do that. The down side is two pissed-off customers, a bit of bad PR, which will pass, and it's back to business as usual.

So once again, I am not in anyway trying to "blame" the uninsured guests for their loss. All I have ever said is that I think that it's irresponsible to tote thousands of dollars of dive gear around and expect someone else to pay for it if it's lost. I insure about $35,000 worth of dive gear and camera gear for a few hundred bucks a year....

Anyway, we're going in circles and I think we will never agree on this and I'm ok with that.

 

[jodylynn007]

Hey people, just want to insert my own 2 cents here. I am a local BC diver and did in fact visit and dive with John after the skiff accident. It was my 1st time up there at the Hideaway and will likely not be my last. I am aware that **** happens and John's place is run on a much looser schedule and dare I say standard than say, God's Pocket for example (which I have also been to and stayed with recently). It's like comparing oranges and mangos, both are yummy fruit that I enjoy, one is just a little more costly than the other.

That being said, I am also very good friends with a few of the divers that were on the trip where their gear ended up in Hardy Bay.

To the best of my knowledge and what I mean by that is, I WAS TOLD, that no mention nor payment of an insurance deductible (or any other remuneration) was paid out to anyone who incurred a loss. If John actually paid someone's insurance deductible, then this is my first hearing of it... I don't think it happened.

Just on a personal note regarding insurance of gear though, I have home insurance and have made special inquires (although I did specifically ask when I purchased the home insurance or made upgrades) about this particular incident and about what would be covered. Had my gear been on that boat, it would have been replaced by my insurance at full replacement value ... I suspect probably around $20k worth, so there are insurance companies out there that do that. Shop around if yours doesn't... and I don't pay extra or a premium for that either. The equipment is just covered under the maximum household amount that I am insured for which is obviously over the amount my scuba gear costs.