Buddy OOA in Challenging Conditions

[Beiji]

James, in my limited experience, the weight difference between the 13, 30, and 40 cf bottles is pretty negligible, especially underwater. As TSandM says, you can unclip and hand it up before you get on the ladder.

Jax, that was me saying I was concerned about the extra weight. James probably wears steel doubles and a huge pony bottle.

 

[Beiji]

ok.... You did a great job of keeping your cool Lisa! There are just a few things to consider.


1) if you don't understand what the diver meant when she wanted to head to the bow... stop her and ask. There is nothing wrong with making the person do the same signal a few times till you get it... (unless its the out of air... hahaha)

Thanks, Fast97rs. What kind of signal does one use to mean "Please repeat your signal"?

5) She didn't require 02 and using it to treat a stress headache would remove that accet from someone else who might definitely require it.

My thinking was that oxygen never hurts and sometimes helps. I thought it was possible that it was more than stress.

6) On a new dive site... cheat and follow other divers... and ask people on the boat what their dive plan is. You have alot of resources on a boat : )

Yeah, I wish we had done that.

Wow, Lisa, I'm glad you and Tish are okay! Wish Derek and I had been there with you. (We know how much of an air hog you are!) jk. In my view, the most important thing is that you did not panic. I know that you were not taking risks because I know how you dive. You used that good head on your shoulders and got out with only a warning to never forget that this sport can throw you some curve balls. The thing is, you can never plan for every contingency. I'm glad to see that you got back on the horse. Now you know that you can deal with some adversity. You never know really until you get a scare like that. It will serve you well in the future.

Thanks for your comments, Mike!

BEIJI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR POSTING HERE AND FOR WRITING ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE IN A CLEAR, ARTICULATE MANNER.

BEIJI, you did fine. You stayed calm, you stayed with your buddy and you didn't panic.

You have learned a lot from the experience. You've been thinking about it and you've written about. That's great.

Current can be difficult. The current probably contributed to Trish's high air consumption. It's even possible that the current caused her safety second to do some free-flowing, although I don't know.

Thanks, OpenMinded. I'm sure it did, and I think it's quite possible that she was worried about me, and that caused her to use more air. Certainly when she grabbed me and pulled me back she burned through more air.

110' is a deep dive, and the current contributed to the diffuclty of the dive.

A 13 cubic foot pony does not provide much back-up gas for 100' dives.

A 30' bottle would be better. You can sling it. Heck, even a 19' cubic bottle would be better. One thing you might take away from this is that a 6' bottle or a SpareAir is probalbly not going to be enough back-up for a deep dive.

I'm also going to be a bit questioning regarding the general dive idea. 100' dives are serious. Personally, I'm not sure that it was very smart idea to hold a Treasure Hunt at that depth for recreational divers of uncertain experience. I don't want to critcize the idea, but I'm not sure that it was brilliant.

I would urge you to continue to dive. Please don't let this experience scare you out of diving in the future.

My deepest was 91 ft. It wasn't just a regular treasure hunt. It was the anniversary of Reef Guard's sinking of the Ophelia Brian, just over a year. Don't worry that I'll be discouraged from diving. I went back in the next day and have more dives planned for this week. I will confess, however, that when I think that Trish could have drowned after we got separated, I feel a little sick.

 

[Beiji]

To the OP, you did a good job. I agree that 100fsw and current isn't a great idea for a treasure hunt. It's also not a set of conditions I would do with a diver I didn't already know. I don't even like those conditions myself unless they were my local conditions and I was used to it. Fighting current is not my idea of fun when combined with an anchored boat (as opposed to a drift dive).

As most have mentioned, donate the air before the other person is OOA if possible. Good job however!

Thanks, GC. I'm not a big fan of current, but sometimes you have to deal with it if you want to do a particular dive. Most of the time I like shallow reefs without current, but sometimes I want to see a specific wreck or do a specific thing that requires dealing with current.

Thanks for posting Beiji, I learn a lot from these types of posts.

That's one of the reasons I posted. So that others could learn from what I did right and what I did wrong and so that I could learn more about what I could have done and will do if it happens again (I hope not!) in the future.

Beiji,
You've had some great advice so far....things I would add:
Close to 100 feet deep, an 80 cu ft tank is the wrong tank for 90% or more of recreational divers.....not that this will fix the buddy, innattentive to her own low air, but she would have had more time to see her pressure guage and kick herself for not seeing when she got to 2000 psi....more importantly, you would have had more gas to help her with.

Obviously your buddy made too many mistakes to go over again now, but the whole anchor diving issue in a current clearly contributed a lot to the errors.
Probably she had never worked so hard as she had to, in pulling down a line against a current....even if she checked her tank psi at the wreck, her heart rate was way elevated, and she was likely breathing much more gas in the next 5 minutes than she would have "imagined". It would be nice if you had checked on her gas a few minutes after reaching the wreck , but you are not DIR buddies, and this is a behavior not taught to the mainstream.

If you have to dive with "insta-buddies" on 100 ft dives, the slung 40 cu ft pony along with your 100 cu ft steel tank, would make you a "force to be rekoned with"

Trish had been on the wreck before for a night dive and said the current was ripping then too. However, I think she had been with a group, not just with one other diver.

Hm, I think I would like to be a "force to be reckoned with!"

 

[oncor23]

Ya know...if a puny bottle is good enough for Lisa...it's good enough for me. At least, that's what I thought when I got mine recently. Yeah, it needs a hydro and a VIP before I actually get to try it out...but there's time for that. However, now you people are making me wonder if I should just turn around and sell it.

After reading all the "stuff" on the board about pony bottles of this size and that...I had figured a 13 would be okay for my diving profile...deepest I've been is 73 ft. Diving on a wreck at 100 ft in a stiff current...sorry, but it's not my cup of tea. I agree that in those conditions, an 80 main tank is okay for someone in great physical shape who sips air. Yeah...I had already concluded a size 13 pony is not adequate under those circumstances...but I didn't plan on that kind of diving. It did, however, get Trish back to the surface from 60.

At 100 ft, or 4 ATA's, a 13 should last 3:15 minutes with a SSAC of 1 cu ft/min. I consider that cutting it too close at that depth. A 19 is probably a minimum size for 100 ft. For 130'...a 19 is too small...better have at least a 30. However, for 66 ft, a 13 is probably adequate. Good observation to those pointing out...a pony is not just for you, it's also for your partner. Lisa sips air...but her partners...sometimes a different story.

As for the amount of current and depth and diving with a new partner as described here...I'm probably not on that dive boat. My older (wiser) dive partner when I was on Bonaire dropped out of a shore dive with much less current than is described here. He was being cautious...and that's something I take seriously. It's not just a question of "can I do it?" The question I ask is, "Do I want to do it...and am I prepared to do it."

Well...Lisa...you have more course work and experience than I do at depth, and experience in strong currents, so I'm not judging you decision to make the dive. I agree with the other posters that, all in all, you handled the OOA situation pretty well. I hope I would have done as well...it certainly makes me think I need more practice.

We all learn by pushing the envelop...this was just a bigger push than expected. Of course...this will also raise the bar for communication and preparation on any dives we make together...which is fine with me. Looking forward to diving later this spring with someone who has been tested...under fire.

 

[Ayisha]

Beiji, I use a 19 cf pony and it's really effortless. It's very light and it's only 2 lbs negative. I'm a petite female and I manage. The difference between your 13 and a 19cf is negligable. Slinging it would be the easiest way to go though, no matter what size you upgrade to.

 

[udtfire]

great job all are safe if I can share a thought dont dive in the moment . what I mean by this is think what is my next move what could happen I use the term W>I>N weight inflate notify when you return to the surface from and event ask do i need weight yes no ,inflate bcd , notify top side you need help you were able to do this with the exception of weight most diver dont train to make this an option when it counts if your friend had dropped her weight she would not have needed someone to inflate her bcd for her . what I am saying is that WE must as divers faced with a problem stay in control and think the problem thur. i am sure this event made you and your friend much better divers because you survuved and learned the best teacher is experience and now you have it glad your safe and hope to see you in the water

 

[oncor23]

Checking the Catalina website....I calculated a full pony 19 weights 9.1 lbs compared to a full 13 at 6.6. The 13 actually has better negative buoyancy numbers...-1.7 full and -1 at 500 psi compared to the 19 at -1.5 full and -.4 lbs at 500 psi. So...the 19, in effect, is 3 lbs more weight to carry. Totally worth it if one is diving to 100 ft. Not so much if staying above 70 ft.

Of course...if both divers have a pony 13...that's better than only one diver in the pair having a pony, even if a 19...or not?

 

[FritzCat66]

Hi Beiji - Lots of good advice here, I'd just like to add another suggestion: Like you, I also carry a pony, intended primarily for myself - a 19cf that I know has enough to get ME to the surface from 100', even with a safety stop.

In a situation like this, I might have also used my pony, but for myself, letting the other diver breathe off my primary cylinder, especially given the amount of gas you had. Then again, I backmount my pony, because I never intend to hand it off to someone else and did not like slinging it, so handing it off to another diver isn't really an option for me.

However, I have a longer-than-usual 5' hose on my primary reg, so sharing it is easier than with a typical short 3' hose. Something else to think about especially if you use an integrated inflator/reg as your octo.

But, long and the short of it is, while it was a close call, you both survived and learned from the experience, and that's ultimately a good thing!

 

[Beiji]

In a situation like this, I might have also used my pony, but for myself, letting the other diver breathe off my primary cylinder, especially given the amount of gas you had. Then again, I backmount my pony, because I never intend to hand it off to someone else and did not like slinging it, so handing it off to another diver isn't really an option for me.

However, I have a longer-than-usual 5' hose on my primary reg, so sharing it is easier than with a typical short 3' hose. Something else to think about especially if you use an integrated inflator/reg as your octo.

Thanks, Fritz. What would be the advantage to handing over your primary to your OOA buddy and breathing off your pony?

 

[JS1scuba]

I was sent an email by a friend and asked to comment on this particular post. My comments are below each area selected. I have not read the other replies to this thread so please excuse me if some items have already been covered.

Divers: 
Lisa, 52, 130+ dives, mainly in Upstate NY freshwater lake and in Cozumel. Wrist computer, not air integrated. Diving Nitrox 32%.
Trish, 49, 70+ dives, mainly in Florida. Wrist computer, not air integrated. Diving air.

Location: 
The wreck of the Ophelia Brian, 110 feet, off the coast of Miami, Florida, for a treasure hunt

Conditions: Swells 2 - 3 feet, current. 

Deepest depth: 91 feet, about 4 - 6 feet below the bottom of the descent line. 

While a 2-3 foot swell is not bad it can be a bit challenging. I'm not clear on the max depth of 91 feet being 4-6 feet below the bottom of the descent line. Unless this was a weighted shot line that was NOT attached to the wreck.

During the dive briefing we were told to wait on the line (the line from the boat to the descent/ascent line) until everyone was in the water, unless there was a lot of current, and in that case, head down. There was a lot of current in my opinion, but apparently not everyone thought so, and we had three people ahead of us just hanging on the line. I thought I was probably burning through a lot of air while waiting because my prior diving experience has been of a different kind, and I found it stressful bouncing up and down, the boat inches from my head. Finally we went down, hand over hand. At times when I was holding the line with just one hand, I felt like I would get blown off.

It sounds like no one made a PLANNING DECISION prior to leaving the boat. The assessment of the current should have been made by crew prior to divers getting in the water.

90% of all dive accidents happen on the surface. From the description of the conditions this should have been set up as a "negative descent dive" where the divers enter the water with the clear expectation of taking the guideline in hand and dropping down to the dive site. This allows for an easy entry in a challenging environment and does NOT risk getting beat up on the surface by the boat OR waiting around for others to get in the water. This is a technique that should be practiced by any divers who plan to dive in currents from a vessel.

We got to the wreck and swam around the top deck. The current was very strong, and a couple times I almost got blown off the wreck, and Trish grabbed me and helped me reestablish a handhold on the wreck. We didn't know at the time that most people dive that wreck by going into the hatch to the cargo hold, which of course, is out of the current. We stayed on the top deck, right in the current. 

This comes back to Pre-Dive Briefing. Wreck diving requires a diver be adept at a variety of propulsion techniques including the pull-and-glide. The hydraulic action of the ocean will push and pull you on a wreck sometimes in a negative manner. One needs to evaluate the conditions on the bottom and get into the "lee" of the wreck or as was mentioned work inside. However once you are inside you are in an overhead environment that brings with it a variety of hazards if one is not trained in advance.

Before we started the dive we had talked about our dive plan. We would look for medallions first then look around the wreck; we would tell each other when we were down to 2000 psi and decide then whether to turn the dive or stay longer. We talked about how close we would stay to one another. Prior to meeting in person, I had told Trish that I had pretty good air consumption and could usually get an hour on most multilevel dives, but I didn't know how her air consumption was, and I hadn't asked.
I'm not sure how much air we had when we first got on the wreck. I think I had between 2200 and 2500, but I'm not sure. We looked around for the treasure hunt medallions for a while. Then Trish gestured to me, and I wasn't sure what she meant, and she headed to the bow I thought to look for more medallions. But she had actually gone to the bow looking for the line because she was getting low on air. When we got to the bow, she made more hand signals, made the boat sign, and I pointed back toward the stern. When I talked to Trish about this part, she said she didn't make the boat sign, so I'm not sure what happened, if I pointed to the stern or if she decided to go back because she didn't see the line. 

Diving with a new partner that you know little about is like going on a blind date with someone you found on Craigs List. It's a serious crapshoot. Pre-dive discussions about what's important to YOU and to them should take place.

This sounds like it was not a multi level dive but a square profile. As such gas planning needs to be handled much more carefully. Thirds, "rock bottom" etc all need to be employed.

When we got to the line she showed me her gauge - 300 psi. I pulled my pony regulator out of the elastic and held it and the line in my right hand, the hand next to Trish. I had to keep both hands on the line because the current was so strong. I was worried about Trish. She ran out of air around 60 feet, and I handed her the reg. We kept moving up the line, slowly and under control. I didn't know how long the 13 cf pony bottle would last for her. I checked my pressure several times and had over 1000 psi, so I knew that we could use my tank if the pony ran out but was concerned that Trish was going to burn through the air really fast. I wanted to go around the people doing the safety stop and blow our safety stop, but Trish wanted to stay. We were at 20 feet. At one point I tried to convey to her to stay calm, but I don't know if she understood. She never seemed panicked to me. We completed the 3-minute safety stop that seemed like 3 hours.

With the short dive time you had (assumed) blowing off the 3minute safety stop would not have been a bad idea. a 90 fsw dive on EAN 32 provides you with 50 minutes of no-stop dive time (USN EAD conversion basis). I'm going to suspect you did not get more than 20 min of on-the-bottom time. A safety stop is of no use if you have nothing to breathe. (I assume your pony had AIR in it. Dont worry about using it on an EAN dive that is no-stop)

When we reached the surface, I grabbed the boat line, but Trish and I got separated. Then the boat hit me in the head. When the boat hit me, I thought, "I hope I don't lose consciousness." I still had the line, but right after that I lost it. I yelled to Trish to inflate her BC. I yelled at the boat that we needed help, but there didn't seem to be a response. So I yelled that Trish was out of air. At that point Mercedes, from the boat crew, jumped in. I watched Mercedes take off some clothes, and it seemed to take forever though I'm sure it only took seconds. She jumped in and swam to Trish.

If she was on the surface and breathing she was not out of air. She may have needed assistance but she was not out of air.

According to Trish, Mercedes got to her and orally inflated her BC. She had been struggling to keep her head above water, and had gone under a couple times. According to her, she was panicking, and she didn't remember to try her power inflator in case there was still some air in the tank that had expanded upon ascending, drop her weights, let go of the one fin that had come off and that she was holding, or let go of the medallions in her hand. At the same time, she says that she knew she had to swim to the stern in order to get help. After Mercedes jumped in, another diver, still in his gear, jumped in and swam to Trish and offered her his reg. She said that she yelled at him, "Put it in my mouth!" because she felt unable to do so. Some of Trish's actions seem to indicate that she wasn't in a full-blown panic. 

It's not clear how she went from calm on the saftey stop to full blown panic on the surface. With an empty cylinder she should have been pretty buoyant.

In the meantime, I managed to grab the line again but was having trouble holding onto it. I ended up at the very end of the line. I pulled myself along but had trouble maintaining my position because of the surge. Mercedes swam out to me and yelled, "Don't let go of the line!" Right before she got to me I considered dropping it and inflating my safety sausage. I just felt so exhausted and weak. But with Mercedes swimming in front of me I made me way back to the boat. I realize now that I did have the strength and energy to pull myself on the line, I did it after all, but I was defeating myself in my head by thinking "I'm too tired. I'm not strong enough." However, I never felt I was at any risk because I had my safety equipment, but maybe I put too much faith in it.

This is a crew issue. If they already had one diver who was exhibiting panic and had to get her on the boat. There is no reason you needed to swim. Wrap the line around your arm and have them pull you in. Good deck people do that. But, smart on your end to have thought of the process of -- "stop fighting the current, drift and let them pick me up."

When I got back on the boat I asked Trish if she was okay. She said yes, but later said her head hurt. I wanted her to take oxygen and told Mercedes. She talked to the boat captain, Mike, and went to get the O2 kit. Mike said he didn't think it was necessary, and it wouldn't then be available for someone else who needed it. Trish decided to breathe from my nitrox tank (32%) instead - I still had 500 psi. I went in for the second dive. When I got back, Trish said she felt better. 

Sorry, Mike is not a medical expert. If a diver asks for oxygen for WHATEVER REASON, he is to provide it to them. PERIOD. A professional dive vessel should carry on board sufficient oxygen for at least 2 divers for at least 2 hours PLUS the time of transport to medical services.

It's quite possible she had a large build up of CO2 from the struggle back to the boat. That would be evident in a head-ache. She also could have been suffering from a gas embolism (though not likely as those symptoms would have presented sooner)

Divers need to be vigilant when asking for oxygen.

We had two good dives the next day and checked in often with each other. We got back on the boat with plenty of air.

Mistakes I made:

I should have checked in with Trish about her air and turned the dive then. 

I should not always assume that the other diver has more experience and better skills than I do. I assumed she had more experience than I did and better gas management skills, but I based that belief on circumstantial things, not direct questioning. She has done shark dives and went on the Wreck Trek the week before we dove together. Because Trish had been on the wreck before, I left it to her to lead, although that was not part of our dive plan. When she knew it was time to ascend because of her air, she got confused about the exit point and went to the bow. We had dropped in closer to the stern. When we were at the bow I finally understood she  was looking for the line. But i was confused and thought that Trish must have known what she was doing in going to the bow. I knew it was behind us, but I looked around the bow for it which makes me think I was a little narced or very doubtful about my own perceptions. 

We should have gone over hand signals. The next day we dove together again, and I said that if she's ready to end the dive, just give the thumbs up sign. It's confusing when divers try to convey too much information with their signs. I also realized the next day that hand signals should be made slowly and deliberately. When I would ask Trish her pressure she would flash five fingers several times in a row rather fast, and I couldn't add it up quickly enough, so she would show me her gauge. 

Once we were on the surface I grabbed the boat line with both hands, but I think instead I should have grabbed Trish, inflated my BC, and had her inflate hers and drop her weights. We would have been swept away from the boat, but she would have still had air and been less at risk for drowning. Once we were stable I could have inflated my SMB and used my air horn if necessary.

When I was trying to get help for Trish I could have used my air horn, but I would have had to have changed it from water to air, and I'm not sure that would have saved any time. Although it seemed to take forever, I'm sure it took only seconds between calling for help and help arriving. 

I should have realized that getting back to the boat could be as hard and possibly harder than getting to the descent line and called the dive. But it didn't even cross my mind. After the second time Trish kept me from being swept off the wreck I should have called the dive. 

I realize how strongly my thinking influences my performance. I never panicked. I knew we had enough air to get to the surface, but once Trish had help, I had a hard time pulling myself in and didn't think I could do it. I am stronger than I think I am and shouldn't let my thinking defeat me.

I'd appreciate your comments, but please be gentle. 

Your assessments of your mistakes are spot on. You won't make them again. Smart on your part to have the pony. That's a New England thing the small 13s -- consider a 30 or 40 moving forward.

As it is said you cheated death one more time. Now that you have a clear understanding of some of what happens when things go wrong you can make better plans next time to ensure that they dont. If you dive with a short hose, get a 5 or 7 footer and learn how to use it. If you plan to go out to places where you are with divers who you are NOT familiar with consider a quality Rescue Diver Course AND Divemaster. Not that you want to be a DM but you will learn a LOT of quality self rescue, and self preservation techniques. Don't get trapped in the "slave to DM or DiveCon mode." Find a top end trainer who can get you through the material and training skills.

Good Luck,

Regards,