I need your opinion

[boulderjohn]

In many instances the guide is not even a pro.

That is true in some cases, and operators who do this are to be avoided. It shows a slipshod organization. Professional DMs/instructors have current liability insurance--others do not.

In a case in San Diego about a decade ago, a DM who had let his certification lapse bungled his attempt to assist a diver to the point that the diver died. The resulting lawsuit put the dive operator out of business, and the DM committed suicide.

 

[Belzelbub]

It is also unreasonable to expect anyone but the diver themselves to be responsible for their safety outside of a class setting.

Exactly. During a class, it is reasonable to expect the instructor to be responsible for safety. After all, the others are learning, so it makes sense to expect the instructor to keep you safe.

Outside of that, though, the diver should be responsible for themselves. They shouldn’t expect someone to rescue them. If someone does, that’s great, but shouldn’t be an expectation. Likewise, the diver should make decisions during the dive to keep from needing rescue, such as not just blindly following a guide or buddy.

 

[boulderjohn]

Exactly. During a class, it is reasonable to expect the instructor to be responsible for safety. After all, the others are learning, so it makes sense to expect the instructor to keep you safe.

Outside of that, though, the diver should be responsible for themselves. They shouldn’t expect someone to rescue them. If someone does, that’s great, but shouldn’t be an expectation. Likewise, the diver should make decisions during the dive to keep from needing rescue, such as not just blindly following a guide or buddy.

I agree with this completely, but I also believe it is part of a DM's job to do what can be done in case of an emergency. I am trying to imagine the response in the Cozumel forum if a diver died and it was revealed that the DM did not attempt to help because he didn't see it as his job. I am also wondering what would happen to the operator's future business success once word got around that the company policy is that DMs don't assist divers in distress.

 

[MrChen]

Yes, apparently Malta is something special. Some folks have posted articles about Maltese court cases involving scuba in this thread.

The brief version is that, throughout the world, there is generally no duty of care for a mere buddy, if you have no professional responsibility over a diver, such as a paid divemaster might have. I.e. if you do nothing to help a mere buddy in distress, you should not have any legal liability.

However, apparently in Malta there may be a different standard, such that, in one instance, a mere buddy who "allowed" his buddy to separate from him, and the buddy ended up dying; he was convicted of manslaughter, to much outcry in the diving community that viewed it as unjust. His conviction was later overturned on appeal.

Note that boulderjohn has discussed in this thread that there may be some liability attached if a divemaster proclaims some professional responsibility over another divers safety, even if they are not taking payment.

Here in South Florida, most dive guides on the boats are not paid employees and work for tips. Would this apply to duty of care?

 

[boulderjohn]

Here in South Florida, most dive guides on the boats are not paid employees and work for tips. Would this apply to duty of care?

Are you sure?

We have had discussions on this in the past, and knowledgeable people have said that they have to be paid a base rate, and that rate is defined by law. Any tips are above that base rate. After one such heated discussion, the South Florida operator I was using changed the captain's spiel to say the DM works "mostly" for tips, or "tips are a big part of the income." The dive operator I have been using the last couple of years says about the same thing.

None of that matters. Any person acting in that role has a basic duty of care. A few years ago there was a South Florida incident in which a diver had a medical event on the surface, and the crew failed to save him because they did not use standard man overboard procedures. The captain/owner was preparing the fish tacos for the post dive snack when it happened. The coast guard came down hard on her for not being present during those operations and for failure to train the crew to respond properly to the diver in distress.

 

[Chavodel8en]

Here in South Florida, most dive guides on the boats are not paid employees and work for tips. Would this apply to duty of care?

Honestly, I dont know. I may sound like I know stuff, but Im just a regular ole diver quick with an opinion.

 

[Biotech Diver]

Self-reflection

I had a vacation about half a year ago and was in Thailand.
I had booked a dive with a company. The following situation had occurred :

I was insta buddy with someone . This woman just had her 6th dive after your OWD degree and already seemed very nervous on the boat.
In the water we should follow the dive guide to about 20 meters depth. Already while sinking I saw that my buddy had a lot of trouble with the buoyancy. At the end of the reef we had dived, there was a rocky abyss that had led to about 50m. Once there I saw my buddy about 5 meters to the right of me and about 2 meters away from the guide suddenly begin to sink quickly and reacted very panic. I approached her and wanted to help, but she lashed out and knocked my mask and regulator out of my face. When I was ready again, I went again to the woman and could calm her down finally however we were there already on approx. 35 meters. I held her by her BCD and took over her buoyancy control. At 5m we did the safety stop and I had set the buoy and we finally surfaced without the rest of the group.
The dive guide was just watching the whole time and didn't react he didn't even come closer. Now my question, am I responsible to help my buddy in such a situation or would that be the job of the dive guide ?


Best regards from Swiss
Pascal

Seems too easy to get OW certified sometimes. I was dating a girl who was originally from the Philippines and got all of her certifications there. I already had my advanced OW certification (SDI) from a dive shop in the Bay Area. By the time we first dived together was on a vacation in Philippines. While in Boracay for 4 days, she achieved her advanced OW certification (PADI). I was shocked how easily she got it. Her instructor helped her with her answers on her written tests. I didn't feel the drills she had to do on her checkout dives were nearly as thorough as what I had to do but at the time I thought that was maybe due to her getting hers from a different agency.

It was a little nerve wracking diving with her because she hardly ever checked her air and she relied on me during ascents and safety stops. I will say she had very good boyouncy control but her other skills and judgement weren't that good, I felt. From then on I realized the diver certification process can really vary in some countries. I've since learned that many of these dive shops in places like the Philippines, Mexico, various Caribbean Islands, and Honduras will let you go on any dive and will certify you if you have the cash. I was wondering if your dive buddy got her certification in Thailand?

 

[Biotech Diver]

I have seen more than a few threads on this topic over the years with people saying that dive guides have no responsibility for their safety. The people writing this have always been non-professionals reporting their beliefs. In those threads I have seen several divemasters and dive shop operators write that in their experience, the dive guides are absolutely, positively expected to provide that assistance.

Then there is the question of what would happen in the courts. As an instructor, I was very clearly told that if I was in any way acting as a professional such that a diver believed he or she could depend on me, I could be held liable in an accident. This would obviously be true if I were accepting payment, but I was clearly told that if I even said something that implied that the diver could depend on me because of my status, I could be liable.

When I was living in Boca I had a neighbor who was a PADI Dive Instructor. She told me of a story where she had to go to court because a diver drowned that was on the dive boat she was diving from. She was not acting as an instructor that day. Apparently some lawyers reviewed the dive boat roster and saw she was a dive instructor so they came after her, and I'm sure she wasn't the only one they came after. In the end she was cleared of any negligence but it was a horrible experience she had to go through. That's when I decided NOT to become an instructor and just stop at Master Diver.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Not all dives are done in the USA.

 

[Klopo]

Seems too easy to get OW certified sometimes. I was dating a girl who was originally from the Philippines and got all of her certifications there. I already had my advanced OW certification (SDI) from a dive shop in the Bay Area. By the time we first dived together was on a vacation in Philippines. While in Boracay for 4 days, she achieved her advanced OW certification (PADI). I was shocked how easily she got it. Her instructor helped her with her answers on her written tests. I didn't feel the drills she had to do on her checkout dives were nearly as thorough as what I had to do but at the time I thought that was maybe due to her getting hers from a different agency.

It was a little nerve wracking diving with her because she hardly ever checked her air and she relied on me during ascents and safety stops. I will say she had very good boyouncy control but her other skills and judgement weren't that good, I felt. From then on I realized the diver certification process can really vary in some countries. I've since learned that many of these dive shops in places like the Philippines, Mexico, various Caribbean Islands, and Honduras will let you go on any dive and will certify you if you have the cash. I was wondering if your dive buddy got her certification in Thailand?

The Buddy got her cert in that week in Koh Samui. With the same company who organised the dives