Bummer on OW Certification

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Phish-phood once bubbled...
Couple of points firstly was this a PADI course? If so it clearly states in the manual that there is no such thing as failing the course only that you may need more practice or longer in the water than others so by telling you to go get private lessons the instructor was wrong. If you've paid the money to do the course then you are entitled to get the time it takes with your instructor until you/they are happy with your skills. The only problem that I can see is if your OW was actually a referral so in essence you are paying two different instructors for the two sections of the course.


It does not state in the manual that there is no such thing as failing.

Paying for the course is just that. You buy a course not a certification. At the end of a course I am under no obligation to issue a certification if the student was unable to meet performance requirements. It should be stated and agreed on up front how things will be handled in the event the student can't meet performance requirements in the aloted time of the class. Both the instructor and the student are bound only by the agreement made between them.

You are not entitled to an unlimited amount of instruction unless that's what was promised you for the stated fee. You are not entitled to certification unless you earn it.
 
Mike I'm sorry, I should know about making bald statements like that because I know where they can lead, so sorry again if I've offended.
The fact is I clearly remember reading that the course was not a pass or fail course and the aim was to get the student through the course. I understand, accept and appreciate that you cannot give an unlimited and unreasonable amount of time to one student who is clearly having problems with the course as it just isn't cost effective and some people are just not meant to dive or not willing to learn from their instructor so fine you have to make a decision at some point.

Although he doesn't say how the rest of the course went I am assuming that the only problem this couple were having was maintaining their bouyancy while swimming. Given that bouyancy was an essential part of the course I can understand why they would not have been signed off and so by the sounds of it an extra couple of pool sessions is just what they need. Most schools I have come accross, including the one I was certified through, allows you to come up and work with a DM or sit in on a specific CW session of another class at no extra charge thus giving you the extra bit of practice that you need. Obviously not indefinitely or for a whole other class.

Also bouyancy is one of the most difficult things to get right and many students have problems going from the pool to open water where they have the extra drysuits and weight to contend with.

Out of curiosity as an instructor how do you decide when a student has good enough bouyancy skills to be checked out? I just wonder because so many times people have come on this board and asked for advice on bouyancy and told stories about how they learned their bouyancy etc. It is said over and over again that the only way to get your bouyancy is to dive and practice but how can you do that if you are not certified. On my OW we were checked out when we demonstrated the skills (fin pivots, hovers) and the knowledge and a reasonable level of proficiency in our bouyancy while swimming, ie not up and down like yo-yos for the whole dive. The difference between my diving now and diving twenty dives ago if amazing and something I would not have achieved had I not been able to go out into the open water and actually live the experience.

Again sorry if I offended, I'll take care with how I phrase things in future :wink:
 
Phish-phood once bubbled...


Out of curiosity as an instructor how do you decide when a student has good enough bouyancy skills to be checked out? I just wonder because so many times people have come on this board and asked for advice on bouyancy and told stories about how they learned their bouyancy etc. It is said over and over again that the only way to get your bouyancy is to dive and practice but how can you do that if you are not certified. On my OW we were checked out when we demonstrated the skills (fin pivots, hovers) and the knowledge and a reasonable level of proficiency in our bouyancy while swimming, ie not up and down like yo-yos for the whole dive. The difference between my diving now and diving twenty dives ago if amazing and something I would not have achieved had I not been able to go out into the open water and actually live the experience.

Again sorry if I offended, I'll take care with how I phrase things in future :wink:

No offense at all. I just wanted to clearify that cerification really can't be guaranteed. IMO, the schools that do guarantee it aren't to be trusted.

To answer your question, often (can't say in this case) buoyancy control work in the pool consists of a short swim without hitting the bottom (30 ft I think) and 1 minute hovering. That's all that's required by standards. The student is then usually terrible in OW and not much better when certified and told that they need to get more practice (if they ask). That's true they need more practice but it should be in the pool before they go to OW not in OW after they are certified.

I don't pass a student on to OW intil they are proficient in the pool. There are still factors in OW that can cause a student who did well in the pool to have trouble like poor vis, extra exposure protection and additional weight. Since good buoyancy control is a requirement of dive one, if the student has trouble we do dive one again instead of doing dive two. If a student isn't as good as I think they should be by the end of dive 4, I ask them to do another dive with me and that can make a world of difference.

IMO, if a student goes through four dives and is then sent back to the pool, some one is admitting to a major screw up and what amounts to a standards violation because by doing dive 4 your saying that the requirements of dive 3 have been met. Clearly if a student can meet the requirements of OW dive 3 they do not need to be sent back to the pool. They have already been given credit for CW and OW dive 1-3. It's a requirement that the instructor sign off on each students log after each dive. How does the instructor takt back their signiture? Now, if the instructor conducted dive 1 4 times and never signed off on it then it might be reasonable to send the student back to confined water. Even here though there is a problem because a student who mastered CW skills shouldn't have that much trouble in OW. What I'm saying is that there is a severe disconnect here that defies all logic. Somebody didn't do their job. PERIOD

Sorry, back to your question. I simply don't certify a diver unless they can plan a dive and tour the quarry (or whatever) controling depth, maintaining buddy contact and awareness without being in the bottom ect. I need to be able to stop and have every one exchange ok's and air supply readings and have every one pretty much hovering horizontally and face to face.

On our dive 4 student plan and conduct the dive in buddy teams. That includes navigation. I follow and watch. If they need help they don't get certified. If they are kicking silt up in my face, they don't get certified. If it looks to me like they aren't aware of each other or they get seperated, they don't get certified.
Also on all dives, all skills are done off the bottom. Divers don't kneel. I won't certify a diver who is going to shoot to the surface or sink into the silt and loose their buddy if they get their mask kicked off.

Bottom line is that issuing a card says that I think this diver can dive without me. I have to believe that
 
Don't know if this has been proposed or not....


Go back to the pool and practice. If you are doing fine in the possibly too small pool, ask the OW instructer if he can actually instruct/teach you a couple of time in OW. Once you have practiced and mastered the skill in OW. Then go through certification again.



I did well on all my pool work and had no problem hovering in OW. But I found that OW neutral swimming was harder/different than the pool. I was good enough to get my cert though. It wouldn't have made sense, for me, to go back to the pool. Instead I practiced this skill in OW and got better/more comfortable at it. My first ocean dive with no wetsuit I again noticed it was a little different achieving neutral and maintaining through swimming. Again I improved with practice.

Good luck.
 
One thing that hasn't been addressed from the original post was the equipment failures. Was this equipment yours or did it belong to the shop that was teaching you? If it was the shop's equipment, and you saw that many failures in one set of OW dives, I'd be wary. Besides, switching gear back and forth like that adds to the stress level that you as a student will feel.
 
We, my wife and I, went to a local resevoir yesterday to practice our buoyancy control. The instructor we went with wanted to go do a "swim around to see what we needed". Swam around for about 20 minutes, surfaced, and was told it looked like it "just clicked" for us. He signed us off so we could do our first solo dive. We did and IT WAS GREAT!!!
Thankx for all who posted on this. It really helped.
 
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