Buoyancy skills

[RainPilot]

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[TMHeimer]

I see where the OP is coming from. I think the basis of the move to starting right off neutrally while doing those skills appropriate is based on the idea that an instructor gets everyone a comfortable as necessary first--then proceed with skills.
This appears to be the OP's view and to me makes perfect sense. I have always had the thought that this probably takes a lot less time with a class of 4 rather than one with 10 or more--even with assistants. Each one in a large class must get to a good comfort level neutrally before the class moves on.
Quite a few highly experienced and respected SB veterans have said this is not a problem. With my limited experience with only large OW courses, I would think this will take considerable more pool time, as someone above suggested. And the pool rent costs money, plus "at 4 o'clock the second class for today will arrive".
I agree that it is better to start off with everything neutrally, and agree with those saying so. I do question the practicality with large classes. If it does take unreasonably longer for all those students to get straightened out--that could be a problem.
I also figure that learning everything neutrally from the start would benefit a new diver who then doesn't dive for a few months and takes a dive vacation, followed by very infrequent diving. They may well start up with a very big leg up on those trained on knees. I was trained on knees and by a few dives had my diving up to a level fairly comparable to what it is now. As probably did a lot of older instructors still teaching. But such people dive often and probably were forced to adjust to good horizontal form and trim, or they most likely would have quit.
Those are just my views and as mentioned, probably not as valid as some on this.
I will add that in my last year or so assisting the instructors spent a few more minutes on neutral "swim arounds" and maybe a bit more time on hovering. There were some changes in the PADI standards regarding this I recall. I think it resulted in the first OW checkout dive going maybe a little smoother, but I "retired" soon after, so again, no expert.

What's more important, mask clearing and reg retrieving ability or good buoyancy?
Trick question. If you ascend or descend uncontrollably and panic you may die. If you panic from a flooded/lost mask, you may die.

 

[EricTheDood]

I agree with the consensus, the first skill taught in OW should be basic buoyancy.

Mask clearing is extremely important, so important in fact that students should show up at the pool session ready to demonstrate a full flood mask clearing along with the water treading and lap swimming tests. This is elementary stuff. You don't teach an OW student to swim, and you shouldn't be teaching him/her to clear a mask. It should be a prerequisite.

Mask clearing while maintaining buoyancy is a much different matter, and that's the skill that's required in real world diving.

 

[TMHeimer]

Eric, while I do agree that mask clearing is very simple, I must say that I tried doing it in the ocean prior to taking OW..
I was unsuccessful because I wasn't getting the correct head angle, So I don't think it need be a prerequisite for taking OW. I do wonder why it is such a problem for so many though. I would think it mainly has to do with fear of water in and around the nose and maybe because of lack of airway control. Once I was shown the correct angle it was easy the first time. There is also no need for anyone to need more than one good blow to empty the mask, though I believe the PADI Standard is that it must be accomplished no matter how many blows it takes, and have heard instructors mention that.
Related is no mask breathing--again, airway control. You take the mask off and breathe from the only place you can, your mouth. I wondered back then why this was even a "skill". Interesting that I recall seeing very few students having trouble with this compared to mask clearing. Now, I'm not Superman, as I had a rough time with doffing and donning the unit, which takes a few steps.

 

[The Chairman]

I just like to have a discussion how to do some basic open water skills. More and more instructors are saying the skills should be done neutral buoyant.

More and more instructors are talking about doing these skills neutral because more and more instructors are adopting the practice. You can too and you'll find it a superior way to teach. I've been teaching this way over a dozen years now and it's great to see all of the other instructors who have found the same thing. There are a few premises involved.

• Set the right example or Monkey see: monkey do!
  • Students copy great examples
    • Great Trim
    • Neutral buoyancy
    • Hovering
    • Neutral kills
  • Students follow bad examples too
    • Kneeling
    • Fins on the bottom
    • Sculling
    • Bounce dives
    • Doing skills on the bottom
    • Any 'exceptions' done in the name of teaching
• Don't teach habits you'll later have to break!!!
  • You're now teaching twice
  • The first way will always be the "go to" in times of stress and uncertainty
  • Overloads already overloaded students.
  • Confuses already confused students
• Students in control of themselves are inherently safer.
  • Reduces fear
  • No more bolters
• More efficient way to teach
  • Less time spent on trying to corral students
  • You don't have to waste time breaking habits
  • Confident students learn quicker and more thoroughly
• It's also much, much easier due to all the above reasons.
• You'll be a part of the cool kids club and your students will be far, far better divers.

So now that you know why we teach the way we do, there are plenty of instructors here who can give you there blow by blow. Join the Instructor group. Join the cool kids and teach neutral.

 

[Diver0001]

With my limited experience with only large OW courses, I would think this will take considerable more pool time, as someone above suggested. And the pool rent costs money, plus "at 4 o'clock the second class for today will arrive".

In fact, it takes less time.

The approach is so much more efficient in teaching people to actually scuba dive that you can sometimes achieve by module 3 a better result already than some "bottom up" instructors ever get regardless of how much time they spend.

You can't teach buoyancy control on the bottom of the pool. Period.

The issue isn't efficiency, however, it's control. What Sander was trying to say (I think) is that he can't see how he can control a group if everyone is floating around. His concern for safety is legitimate but I personally believe that "overly controlling" by keeping all the students from moving around too much severely inhibits learning. In fact, too much control over the students' movements actually CREATES safety issues later in the course because that control stops them from actually learning how to scuba dive. That's why I do initial training in a pool (shallow and nobody can get lost) and that's why I always have a DM with me even if I'm only training 2 or 4 divers.

The way I see it, however is that even with a large group you can use most of what I wrote about on that thread highly effectively. The real time wasters in scuba classes are unnecessarily elaborate demos, and having a student who is "doing nothing" and waiting their turn.

For example, in my course I have tried to cut back on the number of demo's I do. I'm not required to do a demo, I'm required to teach the student the skill, so when a demo is not necessary I don't waste everyone's time doing one. One example of that, just to illustrate, is the "no mask swim". I still see instructors get everyone lined up on the bottom of the pool to watch how well the instructor can take off his mask and swim in a little circle. Then everyone waits around for their turn while the instructor performs the skill with each student. The worst ones will make sure everyone is thoroughly anchored to the bottom and they'll even hold on to the student so they can't go anywhere while they take the mask off in case the student "panics" and tries to bolt.

Think about that. This skill is done in mod-4 and some instructors are still severely limiting the students freedom of movement in case they panic.

Think about that. Think about the psychological effect it must have on the student to be almost DONE with the confined sessions and STILL have the instructor acting like that..... Hell I would probably panic too if someone spent all their time teaching me that this is what they're waiting to happen every time I did something.....

How *I* do this skill, because my students are usually swimming anyway and since they already know how to take off their mask because we've done it in every lesson already, is to just tap a student while they are swimming and tell them to take off their mask and keep on swimming. 1 minute later I indicate to them that they can put the mask back on again and the skill is performed. Obviously I carefully brief it before the dive but at no time do I get everyone corralled on the bottom to watch how good *I* am at doing that. Nobody cares if I can do it. The only thing that matters is that I can teach *them* how to do it.

Same with the CESA. The CESA is really easy..... at the bedrock of the skill, all you have to do is swim and say AAAHHHH..... But I've seen some incredibly involved demos of how to do a CESA (to the point that it's literally confusing to the students) and then everyone gets on the bottom, gets into a fin pivot and waits while the instructor does the skill 1 by 1 (usually multiple times because trying to replicate a complex demo is hard!).

How I do that is to tap a student while they are swimming and tell them to initiate a CESA. I use a marker on the bottom to mark the point at which they have to give the OOA sign and start swimming to the back wall while saying AAAAHHHH but I NEVER get them on the bottom to start the skill, I NEVER make them wait for their turn and I very seldom make anyone watch how good I am at this. It is thoroughly briefed, of course, so everyone knows what to do but because I do everything while swimming it seems perfectly natural for the student to initiate this skill from swimming. It is also considerably easier to perform from neutrally swimming as well so in terms of how many repeats you get it is also more much more efficient.

These are just two examples but this will give you an idea of why working neutrally buoyant is both more efficient AND teaches the skill in the proper context so they are actually learning how to scuba dive in the sense that they are performing the skills in the same way they would during a dive.

I take this approach really far. I never EVER get on the bottom in open water. During check out dives the entire dive is a "tour" and during the "tour" I'll tap students one by one to do a skill. Everyone recovers the regulator, clears a partially flooded mask etc. etc. etc. but they just do it while swimming, exactly like they were taught in the pool. The effect of this is that we have tours that last the whole dive and the skills are just ticked off as we go.

Obviously if you do everything on the bottom in the pool then you will also have to do everyone on the bottom in the lake too because to suddenly raise the bar like that would create dangerous situations. Since my students have done everything while swimming since day 1 they can be asked to do it while swimming during the check outs too.

R..

 

[The Chairman]

You can't teach buoyancy control on the bottom of the pool. Period.

Amen bro! Putting this skill first allows the student to really master it by the end of the class.

The issue isn't efficiency, however, it's control.

Less baby sitting means more teaching.

If you just want to just issue cards, then keep doing it the old way. If you want to teach Scuba that makes it fun for your students and turns them into divers, then doing it neutral is the way to go. Your choice.

 

[TMHeimer]

Thanks to several for the in depth descriptions on how they run courses. Especially Diver0001 with the explanations of saving time doing some skills while all are swimming. Perhaps my questionable view of how important neutral training is from the start is rooted in myself having been a "water" person my whole life before taking OW--so a kneeling course 12 years ago didn't cause me any grief after I started diving. Or perhaps I was just skeptical about getting a class of 10 all comfortable swimming around before skills--time-wise. Having seen a wide variety of "water" vs. "non-water" students I just assumed this presents a problem--like having 10 beginner clarinet players in 6th grade with 2 of them having fingers too small to easily cover the holes. But, what you guys say makes good sense to me. I'm sorry I'm out of DMing and won't ever see this approach in action.
RoT.--Just curious. You said that even with a large class you can use MOST of what you wrote. What would be an example of something you couldn't do with a large class?

 

[The Chairman]

so a kneeling course 12 years ago didn't cause me any grief after I started diving.

There's been a myth circulated since I can remember: You need a hundred dives to get your buoyancy right. This is false. You just need to be taught neutral from the beginning. I've been told that you have to be a "super instructor" to teach this way and that's another myth. However, teaching this way often makes you look like a super instructor. There's no need for a Peak Performance Buoyancy class when your students come out looking like you. It's a wonderful feeling to hear people trying to figure out what class my students "must" be taking and then the almost denial when you tell them.

 

[The Chairman]

Same with the CESA.

The reason I teach NASE is that we don't do the CESA in OW. I hear that's the case for RAID as well. CESAs are a horrible example for students as they watch their instructors put their health at rish doing multiple bounce dives, with RAPID ascents. Truly a stupid thing to do over and over and over again. Instructors are the best divers out there and yet we get bent at an alarming rate compared to most other divers. Why? The CESA. I hate it and I won't do it. My health is too important.