C-Cards/ Qualifications or common sense?

[Drew Sailbum]

"There is NO Federal agency governing this sport."

While the above statement may be true in the US with regard to recreational diving, that is not the case in all locales. Of course the US government does put forth some regulations on commerical diving through OSHA.

Some governments have seen fit to put in place more rigid laws regarding the required certification levels for certain specified diving activities rather than leaving it up to a self-regulating industry.

Whether government regulation will continue to spread in locations worldwide will, in part, be determined by how well the industry acts to self-regulate.

 

[medical1]

Drew Sailbum once bubbled...
"There is NO Federal agency governing this sport."

Whether government regulation will continue to spread in locations worldwide will, in part, be determined by how well the industry acts to self-regulate.

Big brother is watching

The government has done so well with Medicaid, Social Security and a host of other matters. I'd rather make that decision=-)

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Cayman has adopted certain laws about diving for conservation purposes. With conch number dimishing, they outlawed the use of scuba gear for collecting conch some time ago. When that didn't produce the desired effect they imposed a closed season. If that doesn't work, they may simply ban conching.

At other times, laws have adopted industry standards. At one point Cayman banned diving below 130'. But when standards evolved, the law was not so rapid to change. Eventually the ban was lifted and the local industry determined that only those properly trained and equipped would be taken below 130'. This allowed the technical diving boom to reach Cayman. The risk of being left behind is one risk of government regulation.

For goverments that are strongly dependent upon a dive industry, the public perception of diving in that location is very important. Any hint that the local industry is allowing unsafe practices may be met with swift regulation. As such, a conservative approach from the local community may be the norm.

 

[medical1]

Drew Sailbum once bubbled...

Cayman has adopted certain laws about diving for conservation purposes. With conch number dimishing, they outlawed the use of scuba gear for collecting conch some time ago. When that didn't produce the desired effect they imposed a closed season. If that doesn't work, they may simply ban conching.

For goverments that are strongly dependent upon a dive industry, the public perception of diving in that location is very important. Any hint that the local industry is allowing unsafe practices may be met with swift regulation. As such, a conservative approach from the local community may be the norm.

I fully agree with this aspect. Florida has Manatee safe zones as well as a host of other regulations meant to protect the envirnment.

My problem seem to be when regulations are made by an arbitrary orginazation to "Protect me from me"! A card alone does not qualify you. How many Pilots should not have licenses?

Sort of like e-mail :mean: Just because the message was received - it does NOT mean it was read or understood.

God - I wish this board has spell check

 

[divemed06]

I'll probably upset some of you but I think it's a good thing that a scuba course is expensive. Where I'm from, NAUI, SSI, PADI etc OW course are all about the same price (350-400$), weither the instructors works as an independant or via a LDS. That being said, having to invest a considerable amount of $$$ forces you to reflect and make sure you're doing something you really want to do and commit to it. If scuba course where free, I think we would have a much greater rate of dive related injuries (I obviously have no scientific basis for this!!!). I'm honestely getting really tired of people bashing the various organizations on this matter. If you live in an industrialized country, expect to pay for these sort of things, it's a business like any other. Personally, I rather give my 400$ to PADI to support the promotion of diving than giving it to NIKE and helping keep the South Asian sweat shops open! Dive a little or dive alot, dive shallow ordive deep....but always dive S.A.F.E.

 

[medical1]

divemed06 once bubbled...
I'll probably upset some of you but I think it's a good thing that a scuba course is expensive. Where I'm from, NAUI, SSI, PADI etc OW course are all about the same price (350-400$), weither the instructors works as an independant or via a LDS. That being said, having to invest a considerable amount of $$$ forces you to reflect and make sure you're doing something you really want to do and commit to it. If scuba course where free, I think we would have a much greater rate of dive related injuries (I obviously have no scientific basis for this!!!). I'm honestely getting really tired of people bashing the various organizations on this matter. If you live in an industrialized country, expect to pay for these sort of things, it's a business like any other.

Not bashing but how can you compare price with safety? I'm not talking about DAN or the other NON Profit organizations. I'm talking about the FOR PROFIT orginazations that dictate the sport now.

Will diving one day be only for the rich?

Will Donald Trump & Hugh Heffner be diving with us?

 

[Snowbear]

medical1 once bubbled...
:upset: There is NO Federal agency governing this sport. No State or Federal agency issues a c-card (US Navy excluded

This is a good thing! I'm strongly opposed to the government creating laws to protect me from myself!! i.e. seatbelt laws - As a firefighter and paramedic, I know that seatbelts (and helmets for motorcycle riders) really do save lives and reduce the severity of injuries to those involved in wrecks. I feel neked without a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorbike, but in my not so humble opinion, if someone wants to be an organ donor, the govt. should not make it illegal to do so!!

medical1 once bubbled...
Does spending money or having a LOT of cards necessarily make you a safer diver? I’ve seen instructors dive off the boat – only to ask a student to turn on there air. What happened to checking all the equipment before entering the water?

No.
I was assigned (as a DM candidate) to dive/buddy with a guy a few weeks ago who bragged about having over 1000 dives and about 15 c-cards, including rescue, nitrox and a bunch of specialties. I've told the story in another post here somewhere, but to make a short story long, he was about the most unsafe diver I've ever had the displeasure of buddying with.
Spending the money and buying the c-cards does not make a person a better diver. Attitude, practice and striving to perfect your skills does. Granted, there are qulity instructors out there who will help with this, but to take your question literally, my answer must be no - just 'cause you have a driver's license doesn't mean you're a good driver....

medical1 once bubbled...

NEVER EVER STOP LEARNING OR IMPROVING YOUR SKILLS!

See my above comment about attitude!!

 

[MikeFerrara]

o2scuba once bubbled...

scubacowboy once bubbled...
Personnally I dont feel its the Agency as much as the LDS thats out for all the profit, unfortunatley the instructors not only get paid to teach you, they are also on a commisioned pay when it comes to selling you your gear.

What color is the sky in YOUR world??????????

This may be true in some rare case, but not common. Unfortunately many very competant instructors are teaching just for the love of the sport. I know many instructors here in the northeast who are working for very little if anything. In some cases the lds pays the instructors liability insurance, fill their tanks for free and offer good discounts on their personal gear.

Most of these dive centers are micro-businessess, that is one owner struggling to keep up with business expenses. If you break down the costs of teaching an open water class, you'll see that it is NOT a money maker, even at $350. The lds need the income of retail sales to help compensate for costs such as: rent, insurance, power, phone, advertizing, taxes, supplies, vehicles, insurance, accountants,membership & administrative fees (paid to the training agencies), student training equipment, etc..

Now if the agencies were to better regulate the instructor development centers, we might see less of the poorly educated instructors we see so many complaints about on this board. However as long as training companies are spitting out instructors as fast as they can get an approval on their credit cards, the entire industry suffers.

The student suffers by not getting the quality training they deserve.

The instructor suffers as the pay scale is driven down.

The dive center suffers as the standards and qualifications of the general labor pool decreases.

The agencies suffer as well. As there are more and more inexperienced, poorly trained instructors out there, customers/students are getting the impression that their experience represents the quality of the agency in general.

Who is at fault?

The student? Because they are not taking the time to research the qualifications of the lds/instructor?

The instructor? Same reason as above, but also because they are not following the standards set by the agency?

The dive center? Because they are not paying enough to get quality help?

The instructor trainers? Because they are not providing the quality training required to be an instructor?

The agencies? because they are not regulating the quality of the individual instructors adequately?

Perhaps it's a combination. I'm sure there are a lot of different opinions on this one.

I have to disagree with you scubacowboy. Your statement kinda give the impression that instructors are making all the money. Frankly I think the only ones really making out well are the lawyers and the insurance companies.

I think I'm going to put on my bicicle helmet, pepare for the beating

Good explaination.

 

[ElectricZombie]

medical1 once bubbled...
Does spending money or having a LOT of cards necessarily make you a safer diver?

The number of certification cards you have has absolutely nothing to do with how good or safe a diver you are.

People get "certifications" for activities they are not qualified to do all the time. Many people have cards for things they don't even have a clue about.

You can tell a lot more about a diver's skill and safety by looking at his rig and watching him underwater than by the pieces of plastic he carries.

 

[WileEDiver]

I voted "Somewhat" because I see an indirect relationship (at least).

The fact that someone has more cards (endorsements) means that that diver has done more dives under the tutelage of an instructor (who presumably has more experience than the student).

Additional dives, coupled with the fact that those dives were with more experienced divers who are also instructors (which, in most cases, implies a sharing of knowledge and skills) almost has to make one a better, more knowledgable diver which probably translates to a safer diver.

This is not to say that getting more certifications is the only way to be a better/safer diver, just that it is a way.